Split--> VT shooter analysis thread - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-22-2007, 10:29 AM   #1
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
the iron horse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: in a glass of CheerWine
Posts: 3,251
Local Time: 11:10 PM
the crisis of young males in a feminised society

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1686784.ece

* Note: contains photos from Cho's package to NBC. --y. *
__________________

__________________
the iron horse is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 01:07 PM   #2
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,684
Local Time: 10:10 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by the iron horse
the crisis of young males in a feminised society

That's perhaps the biggest load of crap I've read in awhile.
__________________

__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 04-22-2007, 01:39 PM   #3
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
BonoIsMyMuse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 5,241
Local Time: 11:10 PM
Camille Paglia gave a lecture on my campus last fall. She's not much of a public speaker, as she pretty much just talked off the top of her head for an hour and a half, but the good thing I took from that lecture was her call to action for students. If you're not happy with the state of education, you need to be the ones to change it.

At the time, I appreciated her views on education reform, but this article makes her seem like a hypocrite. She spent so much time railing against literary theory, and here she is spewing a bunch of theory. She's doing what many intellectuals are probably doing this week--hiding behind theory and trying to use it to make sense of something we can't possibly understand yet.

As a warning, the article features some graphic pictures, so don't click it if you're not ready to see them.
__________________
BonoIsMyMuse is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 05:33 PM   #4
New Yorker
 
Sherry Darling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,857
Local Time: 12:10 AM
I think there is a lot here in this column Bob Herbert wrote the other day. Any thoughts?

It's funny, discussion of 'women's issues' used to be framed around the "woman question". I'd like to ask: do we need ask a "man question?"

The New York Times
April 19, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist
A Volatile Young Man, Humiliation and a Gun
By BOB HERBERT

“God I can’t wait till I can kill you people.”
— A message on the Web site of the Columbine killer Eric Harris.



In the predawn hours of Monday, Aug. 1, 1966, Charles Whitman, a former marine and Eagle Scout in Austin, Tex., stabbed his wife to death in their bed. The night before he had driven to his mother’s apartment in another part of town and killed her.

Later that Monday morning, Whitman gathered together food, water, a supply of ammunition, two rifles, a couple of pistols, a carbine and a shotgun and climbed the landmark 30-story tower on the campus of the University of Texas.

Beneath a blazing sun, with temperatures headed toward the mid-90s, Whitman opened fire. His first target was a pregnant teenager. Over the next 80 or so minutes he killed 14 people and wounded more than 30 others before being shot to death by the police.

More than four decades later we still profess to be baffled at the periodic eruption of murderous violence in places we perceive as safe havens. We look on aghast, as if the devil himself had appeared from out of nowhere. This time it was 32 innocents slaughtered on the campus of Virginia Tech. How could it have happened? We behave as if it was all so inexplicable.

But a close look at the patterns of murderous violence in the U.S. reveals some remarkable consistencies, wherever the individual atrocities may have occurred. In case after case, decade after decade, the killers have been shown to be young men riddled with shame and humiliation, often bitterly misogynistic and homophobic, who have decided that the way to assert their faltering sense of manhood and get the respect they have been denied is to go out and shoot somebody.

Dr. James Gilligan, who has spent many years studying violence as a prison psychiatrist in Massachusetts, and as a professor at Harvard and now at N.Y.U., believes that some debilitating combination of misogyny and homophobia is a “central component” in much, if not most, of the worst forms of violence in this country.

“What I’ve concluded from decades of working with murderers and rapists and every kind of violent criminal,” he said, “is that an underlying factor that is virtually always present to one degree or another is a feeling that one has to prove one’s manhood, and that the way to do that, to gain the respect that has been lost, is to commit a violent act.”

Violence is commonly resorted to as the antidote to the disturbing emotions raised by the widespread hostility toward women in our society and the pathological fear of so many men that they aren’t quite tough enough, masculine enough — in short, that they might have homosexual tendencies.

In a culture that is relentless in equating violence with masculinity, “it is tremendously tempting,” said Dr. Gilligan, “to use violence as a means of trying to shore up one’s sense of masculine self-esteem.”

The Virginia Tech killer, Cho Seung-Hui, was reported to have stalked female classmates and to have leaned under tables to take inappropriate photos of women. A former roommate told CNN that Mr. Cho once claimed to have seen “promiscuity” when he looked into the eyes of a woman on campus.

Charles Whitman was often portrayed as the sunny all-American boy. But he had been court-martialed in the Marines, was struggling as a college student and apparently had been suffering from depression. He told a psychiatrist that he absolutely hated his father, but he started his murderous spree by killing his wife and his mother.

The confluence of feelings of inadequacy, psychosexual turmoil and the easy availability of guns has resulted in a staggering volume of murders in this country.

There are nearly 200 million firearms in private hands in the U.S., and more than 30,000 people — nearly 10 times the total number of Americans who have died in Iraq — are killed by those guns each year. In 1966 Americans were being killed by guns at the rate of 17,000 a year. An article in The Times examining such “rampages” as the Charles Whitman shootings said:

“Whatever the motivation, it seems clear that the way is made easier by the fact that guns of all sorts are readily available to Americans of all shades of morality and mentality.”

We’ve learned very little in 40 years.
__________________
Sherry Darling is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 08:06 PM   #5
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,984
Local Time: 11:10 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by the iron horse
the crisis of young males in a feminised society

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1686784.ece

* Note: contains photos from Cho's package to NBC. --y. *
I don't want to click on that link because of the photos. Is it somehow saying that men being "feminized" is a reason for this? "Feminized" society? Whatever that means.

That is an interesting article that Sherry posted. Why aren't there female perpetrators of this type of murder? Have there been any of this exact school/college type?
__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 08:15 PM   #6
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
BonoIsMyMuse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 5,241
Local Time: 11:10 PM
Here are a few excerpts. It's a very long article.

Quote:
Camille Paglia, professor of humanities and media studies at the University of the Arts in Philadelphia and author of Sexual Personae, believes Cho is emblematic of the crisis of masculinity in America. “Women have difficulty understanding the mix of male sexual aggression with egotism and the ecstasy of self-immolation,” she says. Or to quote Martin Amis on that other killer, Fred West: he became “addicted to the moment where impotence becomes prepotence”.
Quote:
Paglia believes the school Cho attended would have been no better equipped to deal with frustrated young males. “There is nothing happening educationally in these boring prisons that are fondly called suburban high schools. They are saturated with a false humanitarianism, which is especially damaging for boys.

“Young men have enormous energy. There was a time when they could run away, hop on a freighter, go to a factory and earn money, do something with their hands. Now there is this snobbery of the upper-middle-class professional. Everyone has to be a lawyer or paper pusher.”

Cho is a classic example of “someone who felt he was a loser in the cruel social rat race”, Paglia says. The pervasive hook-up culture at college, where girls are prepared to sleep with boys they barely know or fancy, can be a source of seething resentment and alienation for those who are left out.

“Young women now seem to want to behave like men and have sex without commitment. The signals they are giving are very confusing, and rage and humiliation build up in boys who are spurned again and again.”

The sex, Paglia argues, “is everywhere but it is not erotic”, as can be seen by the sad spectacle of Lindsay Lohan and Britney Spears flashing their lack of underwear during a night on the town. “It’s not even titillating. It’s banal and debasing.”
Quote:
Dr James Gilligan, a former prison psychiatrist who teaches at New York University, believes that misogyny and homophobia are a central component of the make-up of violent criminals, who often fear they have homosexual tendencies.

“An underlying factor that is virtually always present is a feeling that one has to prove one’s manhood and the way to do that, to gain respect, is to commit a violent act,” he says. “It is tremendously tempting to use violence as a means of trying to shore up one’s sense of masculine self-esteem.”
__________________
BonoIsMyMuse is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 08:28 PM   #7
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,984
Local Time: 11:10 PM
So in other words young women are sleeping around with so many guys, but if they won't sleep with these young men turned killers it pisses them off, humiliates them and makes them feel rejected- and that's one reason they kill? Ok.

So I guess the "you" that made Cho do it was the collective trampy/slutty young female "you", in addition to any and all specific young females who rejected him in his own mind. That conveniently leaves out the obvious issues he had from a very early age-issues that had nothing to do with sex or females.
__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 08:32 PM   #8
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
trevster2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 4,330
Local Time: 12:40 AM
I don't feel comfortable discussing the killer's possible motive and background in this thread where people who have suffered personal loss from this tragedy are posting their experiences and healing process.
__________________
trevster2k is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 08:33 PM   #9
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
BonoIsMyMuse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 5,241
Local Time: 11:10 PM
I only posted the excerpts for those who didn't feel comfortable viewing the whole article because of the pictures being posted there. Frankly, I think it's far too soon to be able to draw any conclusions.
__________________
BonoIsMyMuse is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 08:36 PM   #10
New Yorker
 
Sherry Darling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,857
Local Time: 12:10 AM
I'm so glad to hear Dr. Gilligan's book "Violence" mentioned. I can't recommend it highly enough. Amazing, profound implications for all sorts of violent conflict from the VA Tech killings to the Paris riots or Darfur. And it's really readable. Get thee to Amazon.com, FYMers!

On a related note, I'm currently reaching out to school systems around where I live to help them with their conflict resolution/peace education curriculum. I'm VERY excited about this possibility and hope that I can be a part of helping kids learn to resolve conflicts and develop the skills to help problem solve some of the challenges we all face as a global community. Do any of my fellow teachers here have something like this at their schools?
__________________
Sherry Darling is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 08:37 PM   #11
I Serve Larry's Stick
 
clarityat3am's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Rocky Mountains
Posts: 2,996
Local Time: 11:10 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by trevster2k
I don't feel comfortable discussing the killer's possible motive and background in this thread where people who have suffered personal loss from this tragedy are posting their experiences and healing process.
Agreed.
__________________
clarityat3am is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 08:41 PM   #12
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,492
Local Time: 11:10 PM
i think the Paglia article might deserve a separate thread, because it expands the tragedy beyond gun control.

but agreed that this is not the place.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 08:43 PM   #13
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,984
Local Time: 11:10 PM
Well the discussion had already started- I didn't feel it was right in this thread either but I wasn't sure considering yolland mentioned the pictures were in that link but she didn't say it was inappropriate for the thread otherwise. Maybe it can be split off into a separate thread.
__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 08:59 PM   #14
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
sulawesigirl4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 7,416
Local Time: 11:10 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
Maybe it can be split off into a separate thread.
Yeah, I think a separate thread would be best for this. Carry on.
__________________
"I can't change the world, but I can change the world in me." - Bono

sulawesigirl4 is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 09:10 PM   #15
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
trevster2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 4,330
Local Time: 12:40 AM
Thanks Miss Moderator.

I wasn't criticizing anyone personally, it is a legitimate topic. I just wanted to see another thread for it.
__________________

__________________
trevster2k is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com