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Old 05-01-2006, 12:15 PM   #166
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[q]I find it strange that people think it's impossible for anyone that may not agree with homosexuality to not be a bigot, or intolerant. You can disagree with a lifestyle and still accept that it is ok for someone to live it because of their own choice. It's like first there was a stigma about people in the homosexual community, and now there's a stigma about anyone who doesn't think it's 100% right, when neither should be stigmatized. [/q]



there is nothing to "agree" with in regards to homosexuality. it exists, much in the way that people are left handed or have red hair. it's as natural as any of those less-than-usual human traits, and there's no discernable lifestyle that is inextricable from homosexuality. having a constitutive attraction -- which is to say physical and emotional -- to the same gender is not a lifestyle.
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Old 05-01-2006, 01:04 PM   #167
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I don't think it's a lifestyle either, from what I have read and just from what my gut instincts and my personal logic tell me. Not to get into that whole discussion, but it is germane to this discussion insofar as perhaps the parents in Lexington who are upset over this book to believe it is lifetsyle and a choice.
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Old 05-01-2006, 01:15 PM   #168
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Originally posted by Irvine511

essentially, it comes down to this: if a small child can understand that sometimes a man loves another man, then the kissing between two men will be understood in just as simple and naive a way as the million-and-one heterosexual kisses they are bombarded with on a daily basis, in school and out.
That makes sense to me. Life is complicated and messy, so why complicate it for kids? I do think sometimes it's the parents who do complicate it for the kids, again I am just speaking from my experience in my childhood. That definitely happened for me, but it did also help me to think critically and independently and to form my own, differing opinions as a result.

I don't understand sexualizing a kiss either- honestly I would much prefer that my kids, if I had any, read this "gay fairy tale" than to be exposed to the vapid, meaningless, cheap depictions of heterosexual love and sex that exist in our culture these days. A kiss is still just a kiss sometimes and can still symbolize love and nothing more.
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Old 05-01-2006, 03:04 PM   #169
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Originally posted by Irvine511

if the Republicans would stop dividing us in the first place and stop treating gay people like 2nd class citizens then there wouldn't be a need to stand up for ourselves.
the whole point of wearing the leis was to demonstrate that, yes, gay people exist and they have families and children as precious and worthwhile as the families and children of straight people,.
Who divided who by wearing colors to "demonstrate"? This was not a parade or a demonstration.
You show people how to treat you by the way you treat yourself.
You divide yourself when you come to an event and feel you need to let perfect strangers know you are gay, or straight, or abused, or whatever unless that event is for that purpose.
This need to identify your orientation, en masse, "to demonstrate that, yes, gay people exist" is a lack of personal boundaries in that you don't owe, or have to prove your worthiness. You are already worthy.
The message this sends is:
We gay people, (see leis) feel the need to separate from the group to let you know we are 'different' from you. It creates 'sides'.
ALL of us are unique. No one has the same history.
Find the confidence to respect yourself, and others, and that is what you will ultimately receive in return.
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Old 05-01-2006, 03:11 PM   #170
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If it was to advertise their gayness then I think therein lies a problem. I think it is divisive to attend an event and then use that event to make a statement about your orientation. Can't we all just BE.
Everyone should have worn the same color.
That's easy to say when you can wear a wedding ring and show everyone you're "normal".
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Old 05-01-2006, 03:16 PM   #171
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I find it strange that people think it's impossible for anyone that may not agree with homosexuality to not be a bigot, or intolerant. You can disagree with a lifestyle and still accept that it is ok for someone to live it because of their own choice.
Nevermind the lifestyle thing - I think to imply that's what homosexuality is really is a load of garbage.

But as for the rest? I don't agree with the lifestyle choice of consuming 3500 calories a day eating disgusting junk like donuts, Big Macs and refined sugar. In fact, it repulses me. But you don't see me politicking around and trying to legislate to people who enjoy this sort of thing what they can and can't do and then claim that I don't approve of their lifestyle, but hey, they're fine folks otherwise.

Let's call a spade a spade. If you disagree with the lifestyle but "accept" the person's right to live it, then stop trying to make them into 2nd class citizens and restricting their rights.
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Old 05-01-2006, 03:22 PM   #172
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Originally posted by BorderGirl


Who divided who by wearing colors to "demonstrate"? This was not a parade or a demonstration.
You show people how to treat you by the way you treat yourself.
You divide yourself when you come to an event and feel you need to let perfect strangers know you are gay, or straight, or abused, or whatever unless that event is for that purpose.
This need to identify your orientation, en masse, "to demonstrate that, yes, gay people exist" is a lack of personal boundaries in that you don't owe, or have to prove your worthiness. You are already worthy.
The message this sends is:
We gay people, (see leis) feel the need to separate from the group to let you know we are 'different' from you. It creates 'sides'.
ALL of us are unique. No one has the same history.


okay, well, the day that society stops discriminating against gay people, the day that republicans stop trying to dismantle gay families and keep gay people as 2nd class citizens, the day that we don't have threads about the bru-ha-ha over children's books that include gay families, the day that the last gay teenager kills himself out of shame and fear, when gay soldiers can serve openly in the armed forces, when gay men can donate blood to the Red Cross, the day that the last gay teenager is bullied in the hallyway, the day that the last lesbian is fired for being gay, the day that the last young gay man is bashed into a coma while walking down the street, the day that James Dobson stops blaming gay people for the ills of society, the day that Exodus ministries stops abusing young gay men and women into making them believe that god hates them and they should change their orientation, the day that gay people aren't hung in iran, jailed in Egypt, or executed in Afghanistan, maybe THEN we can talk about just being nice to one another.

the lines have been drawn, and it wasn't gay people who drew them. it was a bunch of bigots who needed to find someone to hate, someone to feel superior to, someone to blame, someone to define yourself against in order to feel virtuous.

there are people out there who will strip you of all worthiness by virtue of being gay, that it negates all your other qualities. this is what must be battled, and most of the fighting happens one day at a time, one person at a time ... but this is all predicated upon COMING OUT and asserting that, yes, you are gay, and yes, this makes no difference whatsoever. the best way to kill bigotry is through information, knoweldge, and experience; people who know gay people or have gay members of their families are far, far more likely to support basic civil rights for gay people. none of this can be done without VISIBILITY.


[q]Find the confidence to respect yourself, and others, and that is what you will ultimately receive in return. [/q]


i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, because i think i understand the intent of your post, but my first reaction to this sentence was: fuck off.

how dare you tell me to have confidence and to respect myself and then, like magic, so will others? how can you say that when there is a pending vote on 6/6/06 to put bigotry into the US Constitution by outlawing marriage equality? how can you say that in a world where Matthew Shephard lived and died? how can you say that when you can be fired in many states simply for being gay? when you can have housing denied to you simply for being gay? when you cannot openly serve in the armed forces when you are gay?

when such forces are aligned against you, and when the Republican Party has decided that scapegoating you is going to be the centerpiece of their social policy, you have no choice but to fight back and stand up and be counted and to assert your worth as a human being, and that does involve being out.
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Old 05-01-2006, 03:49 PM   #173
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Originally posted by anitram
Nevermind the lifestyle thing - I think to imply that's what homosexuality is really is a load of garbage.
That's interesting. Back in the 70's, the gay rights movement centered on "lifestyle choice".
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Old 05-01-2006, 03:53 PM   #174
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That's interesting. Back in the 70's, the gay rights movement centered on "lifestyle choice".


could you expound upon this? i know very little about it.

isn't it interesting how movements and people evolve.
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Old 05-01-2006, 04:09 PM   #175
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That's easy to say when you can wear a wedding ring and show everyone you're "normal".
If you feel you must wait for society to 'bless' your union then you might wait a long time.
If you are referring to the material part of what constitues a marriage, Durable powers of attorney, surrogate decisions, wills, and inheritance can be tailored to cover gay relationships without the need for marriage.
Whatcha waiting for is what I always wonder!
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Old 05-01-2006, 04:22 PM   #176
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If you feel you must wait for society to 'bless' your union then you might wait a long time.
If you are referring to the material part of what constitues a marriage, Durable powers of attorney, surrogate decisions, wills, and inheritance can be tailored to cover gay relationships without the need for marriage.
Whatcha waiting for is what I always wonder!
Why should any one group have to special tailor just to get the same rights?

It's absolutely arrogant to say this, and this ask "can't we all just be?"

But this off topic...
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Old 05-01-2006, 04:25 PM   #177
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Originally posted by BorderGirl


If you feel you must wait for society to 'bless' your union then you might wait a long time.
If you are referring to the material part of what constitues a marriage, Durable powers of attorney, surrogate decisions, wills, and inheritance can be tailored to cover gay relationships without the need for marriage.
Whatcha waiting for is what I always wonder!


um, waiting for it to be legal? as it stands, full marriage rights are available only in massachusetts, civil unions are available in vermont and connecticut, and many cities (nyc, wdc, la, sf) have domestic partnership benefits, but there remains no federal recognition of a same-sex marriage even for people legally married in massachusetts.

it strikes me that you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. are you aware that if my (theoretical) partner were in the hospital, i might not be able to visit him? that i wouldn't be able to make decisions regarding his long term care if he were incapacitated? that a spiteful family could swoop in and seize all of his assets that we might have spent a lifetime working together to amass?

an example i came across on a blog:

[q]In my own case, my partner and I are selling my house here in California - and I will have more than $600,000 in gains. We've been together 4 years. If I gifted him half the house - he would be taxed. A couple who could have married however, would get a $500,000 flat excusion for gains under the tax code. As a single, unmarried man I get only a $250,000 exclusion - meaning that I am paying in just this one instance more than $100,000 penalty in taxes that a married couple would not have.
[/q]
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Old 05-01-2006, 04:33 PM   #178
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[q]Find the confidence to respect yourself, and others, and that is what you will ultimately receive in return. [/q]

i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, because i think i understand the intent of your post, but my first reaction to this sentence was: fuck off.

how dare you tell me to have confidence and to respect myself and then, like magic, so will others?

This a sad to me ^.

I think we need to find the goodness in all people. You'll probably think I'm slamming you with the below, and you can think that if it makes you feel better. It is meant to inspire, to look at things from all, or both, sides.
You can leave out the last sentence if you aren't religious.

Peace Prayer of St. Francis of Assisi

Make me an instrument of your peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
when there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.
Grant that I may not so much seek
to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand,
to be loved as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
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Old 05-01-2006, 04:36 PM   #179
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Originally posted by Irvine511
could you expound upon this? i know very little about it.

isn't it interesting how movements and people evolve.
In the 70's, the innate characteristic line of thought was essentially in its infancy. The approach used to gain acceptance for many things was with the idea of personal choice. As human sexuality increasingly found its way into the public eye, homosexuality found greater acceptance within the context of open sexual relationships (or, I should say openness about sexual relationships).
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Old 05-01-2006, 04:38 PM   #180
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This a sad to me ^.

I think we need to find the goodness in all people. You'll probably think I'm slamming you with the below, and you can think that if it makes you feel better. It is meant to inspire, to look at things from all, or both, sides.


no.

i don't think you are slamming me at all. i don't think you, personally, have anything against any people on the basis of any of their immutable characteristics like race, gender, sexual orientation, etc., nor would you discriminate against anyone on the basis of their religion or ethnicity or socioeconomic background.

i do think, however, based on your posts, that you don't understand the political situation at all.
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