macphisto23 said:
1- Ha Ha, coegman please reread my post on the trinity, and understand our interpretation of "ONE" God. We believe in God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, and believe that they are "ONE" in purpose and "ONE" in heart, but not "ONE" in substance, as you believe. But our interpretation is wrong and yours is right??? ofcourse
Well, let’s consider what the Old and New Testaments say:
Deuteronomy 32:39
"See now that I myself am He!
There is no god besides me.
I put to death and I bring to life,
I have wounded and I will heal,
and no one can deliver out of my hand.
1 Samuel 2:2
"There is no one holy [a] like the LORD;
there is no one besides you;
there is no Rock like our God.
2 Samuel 7:22
"How great you are, O Sovereign LORD! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.
Isaiah 43:10-11 "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."
Isaiah 44:6 “Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.”
Isaiah 44:8
Do not tremble, do not be afraid.
Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."
Mark 12:32
"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.
Romans 3:30
“since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.”
1 Corinthians 8:4
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one.
I ask you yet again, how do you reconcile that? Your answers are insufficient so far.
2- I'm sorry but our interpretation is exactly in line with the Bible
Mathew 19
16- He asked "what do I have to do to have eternal life"?
17-Jesus sais " there is none good but one, that is God(or Heavenly Father, but why would Jesus talk about himself like that?)" he continues " if thou wilt enter into life, "Keep the Commandments"
18, 19 - Which Commandments do I have to keep? Jesus lists all of them
20- Young Man says he has kept all of them since he was young, "WHAT LACK I YET". He's asking Jesus, what else do I have to do aside from keeping the commandments(works).
21- Jesus says " if thou will be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." Aside from keeping the commandments it is vital in life to follow Christ, follow his teachings, his commandments, be obedient to them.
Jesus always talked about himself as God. Haven’t you read the Bible? Also, even using the KJV, Christ is simply saying that keeping the commandments isn’t enough. You need to get rid of all your hinderances “and come follow me.” That’s what the guy lacked. And also, are you believing in a triune God now? Those commandments didn’t come from Christ, yet you’re saying they did? Would you make up your mind?
I'll skip ahead
He required his disciples to follow his teachings and commandments
32- and said that they would be rejected at the judgment day if they did not do so.
33- He declared that "not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven,"
34- suggesting that confession of his name, while necessary, is insufficient for salvation.
It’s funny you skipped ahead to Matthew 19: 32-24 considering Matthew only has 30 verses – at least that’s according to the KJV I have. How did you do that? Is this the Mormonised version of the KJV? Are we creating truth here by altering God’s sacred word? Yeah, that’s not the sign of a cult.
So, in reality, after a look at the context of the whole story of "The Rich Young Man" and the ENTIRE verse that you tried to quote, the actual meaning is the complete opposite of what you were getting at.
Your use of sarcasm takes an ironic twist now, doesn’t it?
The confusion over grace results principally from the writings of the apostle Paul. But if Paul really taught that grace alone was sufficient for salvation, we have to consider a number of questions-
Why did Paul write so often to Christian congregations admonishing them to abandon their sinful ways?
Simply because you can’t really follow Christ if you’re consistently sinning and not doing anything about it. So what?
Why did Paul have to tell believing Christians that those who committed various sins could not be saved in the kingdom of God?
Simply because if they had that level of sin in their lives still, they truly hadn’t accepted Christ as lord. So what?
Why did Paul teach that Christ is "the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe?"
I don’t think this verse fits your argument very well. It actually fits mine much better.
Why did Paul say that "godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation?"
Again, let’s look at the FULL verse to get it’s actual meaning. “For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.”
He’s essentially saying “Leads to” not “we must work”. He’s comparing godly sorry to worldly sorrow. Otherwise, you’re saying we must work out our death?
Why did Paul tell the Philippians to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling?"
He’s not talking about having to do work here to gain salvation, he’s talking about once you’re saved you must revere and respect God. Again, look at the text.
When discussing "the grace of God that bringeth salvation," why does Paul say that it teaches "that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world?"
Why does the epistle to the Hebrews say that Jesus was "the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him?"
Again, these aren’t saying that our works lead to salvation, they’re saying a saving faith must include obedience. This matches what James says. It doesn’t negate the idea that we are saved through Grace alone.
Each of these passages suggests that grace alone is not sufficient for salvation. Consequently, when reading the epistles of Paul, one must keep a much broader picture in mind. For example, Paul told the Romans,
18-That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
From this passage, it is clear that grace alone is insufficient and that it must be coupled at least with faith and with one act, confession.
OK, you got me, if you want to consider confessing faith as a “work,” I’ll give it to you. We don’t consider it really a work – it just means you believe. It’s simply part of the process. You basically only have to have a beating heartbeat to be able to confess faith. (unless you’re baptized by the Mormon church, I guess).
In several of his epistles, Paul wrote that salvation came by grace, not works. For example, he wrote of Christ "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."
19- He told the Romans that "if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
20- He asked his readers, "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
Was Paul teaching that good works were not the basis of salvation? If so, how are we to understand passages like Revelation 20:12-13, which say that God will judge men "according to their works"? The answer lies within Paul's epistles to the Romans and the Galatians, in which he clearly explained what he means by "works." He declared that "Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because (they sought it) not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone."
He wasn’t teaching that good works weren’t the basis for salvation. He’s teaching that Grace is.
And once again, your use of Revelation 20:12-13 is a horrible misinterpretation and a failure to use the full context of the entire passage. Again, this is very typical of Mormons. That’s why Mormonism is a cult.
Go look up the passage again, and this time acknowledge the part about the book of life. If you read just a bit further – I know you can do it – you’ll see that he’s talking about two books the book of life, and the book of death. Those in the book of life – those who are saved by God’s grace, aren’t judged by their works. Only those in the book of the dead are – those who didn’t accept his grace. They’re judged by their works because that’s all they had. Our works are never good enough. So, once again, if you look at the ENTIRE passage, it actually goes against the point you were trying to make. READ THE WHOLE PASSAGE!!!!!!!
Your last bit there that Paul declared supports the stance of Grace alone. Why are you using it in your argument against it? If you take out the part you added “(they sought it)” it makes sense. They didn’t attain righteousness because they didn’t seek it by faith, but through the works of the law. Let’s stop trying to twist what the Bible says, OK?
3- We believe in the Jesus from the Bible, I don't know what Jesus you believe in?
This is from, "What Mormons Think of Christ" (an LDS publication, pages 32-34):
"Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much is believed and taught on this subject, however, it is utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose one's salvation."
This is from 1 John 1:7, i.e. The Bible: (Even the KJV that you use exclusively!)
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin"
This is from Hebrew 9:14, KJV
"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"
This is from Revelations 1:5, KJV
"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood" (Revelations 1:5).
Are you sure you believe in the Jesus of the Bible?
4- I urge you to look deeper
I urge you to accept the obvious and stop twisting the truth.