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Old 08-18-2007, 03:02 PM   #286
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Incorrect. My and all my protestant friends and family would vote for Mitt in a heartbeat if he gets the nomination. We have nothing against Mormons.
You are in a blue state.

Red Staters/ Southern Baptist are a different lot.
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Old 08-18-2007, 03:18 PM   #287
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Incorrect. My and all my protestant friends and family would vote for Mitt in a heartbeat if he gets the nomination. We have nothing against Mormons.


you should dig through some of the threads about Mormonism in here. the evangelicals get ker-azy when Mormons try to claim that they are Christians of equal footing and are actually not a cult.

me? i don't give a shit. i don't care about a candidate's religon.

but is the GOP who tried to tell us that these things matter and that GWB's status as a Christian -- and remember his whole laughable crap about Harriet Miers and "knowing her heart" -- was criteria enough for his election.

you and your friends might be tolerant of Mormons, but as a group, conservative evangelical protestants are not.
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Old 08-18-2007, 08:18 PM   #288
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Originally posted by Irvine511




you should dig through some of the threads about Mormonism in here. the evangelicals get ker-azy when Mormons try to claim that they are Christians of equal footing and are actually not a cult.

me? i don't give a shit. i don't care about a candidate's religon.

but is the GOP who tried to tell us that these things matter and that GWB's status as a Christian -- and remember his whole laughable crap about Harriet Miers and "knowing her heart" -- was criteria enough for his election.

you and your friends might be tolerant of Mormons, but as a group, conservative evangelical protestants are not.
Chistians in Christ day could have been look on as cultists.

That said, the tide is changing a bit, probably not enough but- here are a few noteworthy links:

Ravi Zacharias Addresses Latter Day Saints:

http://existence-of-god.com/ravi-zac...esses-lds.html

http://pewforum.org/events/?EventID=148
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/ind...oseph+baptists
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Old 08-19-2007, 10:20 AM   #289
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Chistians in Christ day could have been look on as cultists.



hey, i totally agree with you.

the suburb i grew up in had an unusually high population of Moromons, i think the highest percentage-wise of any town of it's size east of the Mississippi. the Mormons in my town were as much a "group" as, say, the East Asian Indians, or the Jews, or whatever. i had many Mormon friends and they were all pretty much delightful, smart, wonderful people. blond, played the piano, had biggish families, and i have nothing but positive things to say.

do i think the religion itslef is wacky? yeah. but it doesn't matter much to me -- burning bushes and flying up to heaven and walking on water is all pretty wacky too.

the difference, diamond, is that a secular agnostic humanist such as myself isn't going to hold this against a Mormon candidate. whereas the Christians the Republicans have hitched their wagons to are precisely the kind of people who are going to hold this against Mitt.

you see? secularism will save us, every time. making religion a necessary litmus test for higher office is going to come back and bite you in the ass. secularism! secularism! secularism!

to many of these Christians, being a Mormon is as anti-Biblical as being ... gay!

and i just find it funny when -- and we've seen this over and over in here when our more conservative posters get in a tizzy about Mormonism -- some Christians try to pretend that Mormonism is somehow structurally weirder than their own relgion, and it gives them the creepy feeling that, in the manner in which they look down upon Mormonism so do many look down upon their particularly conservative stripe of Christianity.

say it again: SECULARISM!!!
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Old 08-19-2007, 10:57 AM   #290
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Thank you for that kind words Irvine.


And as in this post from a Evangaical some our changing their minds, maybe not enough, but it is a start:

“I am now convinced that we evangelicals have often seriously misrepresented the beliefs and practices of the Mormon community. Indeed, let me state it bluntly to the LDS folk here this evening: we have sinned against you. The God of the Scriptures makes it clear that it is a terrible thing to bear false witness against our neighbours, and we have been guilty of that sort of transgression in the things we have said about you. We have told you what you believe without making a sincere effort first of all to ask you what you believe... Indeed, we have even on occasion demonised you, weaving conspiracy theories about what the LDS community is really trying to accomplish in the world, and even at our best, we have, and this is true of both our communities, talked past each other, setting forth over-simplified and distorted accounts of what the other group believes.”


To keep things in perspective, Mitt is running for Commander in Chief- not Mormon in Chief, and he has made this abuntantly clear.

thanks again.


dbs
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Old 08-19-2007, 03:22 PM   #291
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To keep things in perspective, Mitt is running for Commander in Chief- not Mormon in Chief, and he has made this abuntantly clear.


absolutely.

it was sheer poison to introduce Christianity as a specific criterion upon which to judge a candidates electability in 2000 and 2004. hopefully, we can cleanse this from the system in 2008, but i fear the Rove/Bush legacy may linger far longer.
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Old 08-19-2007, 03:31 PM   #292
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Originally posted by diamond
And as in this post from a Evangaical some our changing their minds, maybe not enough, but it is a start:

“I am now convinced that we evangelicals have often seriously misrepresented the beliefs and practices of the Mormon community. Indeed, let me state it bluntly to the LDS folk here this evening: we have sinned against you. The God of the Scriptures makes it clear that it is a terrible thing to bear false witness against our neighbours, and we have been guilty of that sort of transgression in the things we have said about you. We have told you what you believe without making a sincere effort first of all to ask you what you believe... Indeed, we have even on occasion demonised you, weaving conspiracy theories about what the LDS community is really trying to accomplish in the world, and even at our best, we have, and this is true of both our communities, talked past each other, setting forth over-simplified and distorted accounts of what the other group believes.”
Ironically, you can substitute "LDS" and "Mormon" with "gay," and it's equally true. Unfortunately, both evangelical and Mormon alike seem to get a kick out of demonizing, weaving conspiracy theories, and "bearing false witness" against the gay community.
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Old 08-19-2007, 08:10 PM   #293
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Originally posted by melon


Ironically, you can substitute "LDS" and "Mormon" with "gay," and it's equally true. Unfortunately, both evangelical and Mormon alike seem to get a kick out of demonizing, weaving conspiracy theories, and "bearing false witness" against the gay community.
Melon old boy, I think you got it wrong, here is my Church's stance on Homosexuality; I see no demonizing by my Church's statement:
Check this:

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOr...ontentLocale=0

Although it is still not exactly what Gays are hoping for, I think as a culture our tone is much friendly to same gender attraction people, admittingly that it still doesn't please everybody, but there are a lot of gay Mormons that still choose to stay in the Church for one reason or another.

Contrast that with this:

This is a very interesting and telling clip.

2 "Evangelicals demonstrators" debating eachother.
One hates Mormons, the other hates Gays.

Take a look, go down to the link entitled,

"Preaching Against Fred Phelps/Westboro Baptist Church"
and see 2 camps scream back and forth at eachother:

http://www.revivalneeded.com/video.html



As a Mormon Christian, I pity them both, and most fairminded ppl would be able to see my Church's views are less confrontational, contentious and much different than Evangalicals.

dbs
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Old 08-19-2007, 11:50 PM   #294
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Originally posted by diamond
Melon old boy, I think you got it wrong, here is my Church's stance on Homosexuality; I see no demonizing by my Church's statement:
Check this:

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOr...ontentLocale=0
Quote:
President Gordon B. Hinckley has promised that those with same-gender attraction who do not express these inclinations may “go forward as do all other members of the Church”
And, of course, for those who don't want a life sentence of solitude and self-loathing, the punishment is excommunication, right?

This does not change my initial statement whatsoever. Many religions, including that of many evangelical Christians and Mormonism, have a view of "homosexuality" that is filled with lies ("it's a choice"), unsubstantiated conspiratorial claims ("they're out to get our children"), and pseudoscientific stereotypes ("they must have had a weak father"). Let's face it, diamond, you've regurgitated many of them here in this forum too.

I do understand why it is frustrating for you, as a Mormon, to see a world that misrepresents your religious beliefs and constructs a kind of two-dimensional "boogie man" out of you. I find it baffling, as such, that, in light of these misunderstandings and societal prejudices against you, that you and other Mormons cannot see that your church's stance against homosexuals is as inane as mainstream Christianity's disgust with your religion.

But I have long since learned that empathy is often too much to ask out of people.
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Old 08-20-2007, 12:38 PM   #295
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I do have plenty of empathy, and I think you think I have none, but you're mistaken.
In the end I know that God will sort through everything and each case, eternity is a long time.
Each indivual will know exactly where they stand, because God who is perfect with uncondtional love, is a place where only truth can dwell.

I also think that some with dictorial, pious and judgemental views may have a rude awakening.

So please in the future do not say that my Church demonizes gay ppl, because they do not and the premise is inflamatory, nor does Mitt Romney who the thread is about.

If you want to say some mainline Christians do, you'd would be more accuarte, and it's too bad they do.

dbs
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Old 08-20-2007, 12:44 PM   #296
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PEOPLE, dammit, PEOPLE

Quit with the ppl bullshit already.
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Old 08-20-2007, 02:06 PM   #297
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PEOPLE, dammit, PEOPLE

Quit with the ppl bullshit already.


that's fascinating.

are we misunderstanding you, diamond, or are you saying that an individual who is gay is not worth of being called a "people" just a "ppl"? that being gay is so unnatural as to revoke someone's personhood?

just curious. are we misinterpreting you?
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Old 08-20-2007, 03:03 PM   #298
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Originally posted by Irvine511




that's fascinating.

are we misunderstanding you, diamond, or are you saying that an individual who is gay is not worth of being called a "people" just a "ppl"? that being gay is so unnatural as to revoke someone's personhood?

just curious. are we misinterpreting you?
Clearly I hope you're joking.

I use the word "ppl" as a form of shorthand on the boards, a quick search would establish that.

dbs
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Old 08-20-2007, 03:46 PM   #299
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Melon old boy, I think you got it wrong, here is my Church's stance on Homosexuality; I see no demonizing by my Church's statement:
Check this:

http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOr...ontentLocale=0

Although it is still not exactly what Gays are hoping for, I think as a culture our tone is much friendly to same gender attraction people, admittingly that it still doesn't please everybody, but there are a lot of gay Mormons that still choose to stay in the Church for one reason or another.

Contrast that with this:

This is a very interesting and telling clip.

2 "Evangelicals demonstrators" debating eachother.
One hates Mormons, the other hates Gays.

Take a look, go down to the link entitled,

"Preaching Against Fred Phelps/Westboro Baptist Church"
and see 2 camps scream back and forth at eachother:

http://www.revivalneeded.com/video.html

As a Mormon Christian, I pity them both, and most fairminded ppl would be able to see my Church's views are less confrontational, contentious and much different than Evangalicals.

dbs
Just because your views aren't quite as radical as other views doesn't mean they aren't heavily flawed and bigoted.

Quote:
These blessings are based on obedience to eternal principles. The importance of families is one of these principles. Heaven is organized by families, which require a man and a woman who together exercise their creative powers within the bounds the Lord has set. Same-gender relationships are inconsistent with this plan. Without both a husband and a wife there would be no eternal family and no opportunity to become like Heavenly Father.

In some circumstances a person defers marriage because he or she is not presently attracted to a member of the opposite gender. While many Latter-day Saints, through individual effort, the exercise of faith, and reliance upon the enabling power of the Atonement, overcome same-gender attraction in mortality, others may not be free of this challenge in this life. However, the perfect plan of our Father in Heaven makes provision for individuals who seek to keep His commandments but who, through no fault of their own, do not have an eternal marriage in mortal life. As we follow Heavenly Father’s plan, our bodies, feelings, and desires will be perfected in the next life so that every one of God’s children may find joy in a family consisting of a husband, a wife, and children.

Same-gender attractions include deep emotional, social, and physical feelings. All of Heavenly Father’s children desire to love and be loved, including many adults who, for a variety of reasons, remain single. God assures His children, including those currently attracted to persons of the same gender, that their righteous desires will eventually be fully satisfied in God’s own way and according to His timing.
Your church completely bypasses the fact that homosexuality is not a choice, and in fact, believes that a good Christian will "overcome" homosexuality. That's terribly, terribly wrong and offensive.
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Old 08-20-2007, 06:47 PM   #300
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So please in the future do not say that my Church demonizes gay ppl, because they do not and the premise is inflamatory, nor does Mitt Romney who the thread is about.
Oh really?

http://www.lathefamily.org/2007/05/w...rting_at.shtml

Quote:
A decade has passed since the excommunication which ended 20 years as a devout convert member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Two decades of the three of my adult life was spent as a Mormon. I was missionary, congregational leader, sunday school teacher, missionary leader and more. Twenty years ended in one day. One day that was presaged by a few years, but it ended in one day.

I was excommunicated on January 7th, 1997, but the day that started in motion the occurances that would lead to that excommunication day was August 16th, 1996. You see, on that day I was in Salt Lake City, Utah giving a talk at a Sunstone conference. I had never been to a Sunstone conference, but they asked me to speak as a gay man, as a Mormon and as a molecular biologist on a panel. The panel was discussing a new change to the Church's social service booklet about homosexuality. This booklet was given to Church psychiatrists to help them deal with LGBT members. The booklet was filled with factual errors and errors of omission. The panel consisted of myself, a medical doctor and a psychiatrist and we criticized the new booklet.

I almost didn't go. I was in the middle of writing my dissertation in Rochester New York and was frantically trying to finish up experiments. I also was, at that time, an "active" Mormon and though I could have been considered quite a liberal Mormon (I was openly gay, though celibate, at the time) and only attended church a couple times a month, I wasn't sure I wanted to give the talk. So I called them and said I couldn't go. But then my mother called me and told me I absolutely had to go. Though she didn't know what, there was a reason I had to go. I told her I couldn't afford the last minute fare. She was so sure I had to go she paid the fare.

...

Up to that point I hadn't told anyone in the Church about Guy. It was a don't ask, don't tell policy. The missionaries took that news back to my bishop.

The bishop asked me in our discussion that day about this 'boyfriend'. Up to that point I had been a celibate, active Mormon. He wanted to know if that had changed. I wasn't about to lie about the man I was going to spend my life with, so I said it had indeed changed.

He wasn't sure what to do with that, so we set up an appointment with the Stake President. After discussing the situation (talk in Utah, a boyfriend, etc), he decided that we would have to hold a 'court'.

Yes, a court. You sit before 15 men, the stake president, his two counselors and 12 stake councilmen, and hear 'evidence' against you and defend your membership.
Feel free to read the entirety of it. And that's just Part 1. Here's Part 2:

http://www.lathefamily.org/2007/05/w...urt_of_e.shtml

Again, nothing at all that I've written or what I've read from you have contradicted these two basic premises:

1) The LDS church, like many Christian denominations, excommunicate gays who do not want to be celibate.

2) The LDS church, like many Christian denominations, hold views about gays that are stereotypical, pseudoscientific, and flat-out wrong.

By extension, we're back to my original point: just like Mormons decry the fact that many mainstream Christians hold stereotypical, conspiratorial, and incorrect views on what Mormons believe, Mormons hold stereotypical, conspiratorial, and incorrect views on the issue of homosexuality. For the record, I do view this discrepancy to be "hypocrisy," but I will say, for the record, that Mormons are not the only ones who are hypocritical on this subject. In fact, considering how many conservative Christians think that there's a "War Against God" in America, I'd say that they're all hypocrites.
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