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Old 08-07-2003, 10:21 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm


We should have allowed the inspectors to continue doing their job. If we could find WMD then, we would have had the UN support that was necessary. Olive
How freckin' long???? Saddam was supposed to be complying with inspections since 1991! He was a master at playing hide and seek with the weapon inspectors. I seriously doubt that the UN inspectors would have ever found anything. You know why? Because Saddam was having scientists bury nuke parts under their rose bushes. C'mon!! I don't know about you, but if I was working for Saddam and he told me to bury something, I'd do it. And if an inspector asked me about it, I'd lie right to their face because I would not want wife raped and killed. So, to sum up, there would have never been a satisfactory ending to the UN inspection process. Bush did the right thing by taking action when he did.

Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm
Delaying war would also result in a far lower cost, in $$ and lives, than war has been to the US. In the meantime, we could have gained intelligence, and most of all PLANNED for a possible war, and it's aftermath. Olive
I could not agree with you more. It's quite obvious that the White House didn't spend much time thinking about how to win the peace. Now we've got terrorists in there as well.

Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm
Perhaps it would turn out Iraq is a threat to us, but we (all) deserve proof of that, and i think it's coming out now how we didn't really have any.Olive
Bush had two choices, 1. Turn a blind eye ala Clinton and hope to God that none of those weapons wind up in NYC or 2. Remove a mass murdering nutjob and install a democratic, free government in the most dangerous, anti-US region on the map. Which choice would you prefer to be on the WRONG side of? I'll take number 2.

Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm
But we didn't attack him because he's evil and has terrorized his own country. Olive
This was part of the reason.

Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm
We attacked him on the assumption he has WMD...Olive
This was the main reason.

Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm
...and I don't think an assumption is good enough to go on...Olive
I do. Again, with this stuff, after 9/11, you have to think worst case scenerio. Maybe Saddam wasn't a threat right now. But if the UN declared he was all clean and the US backed off with their troops (the only thing Saddam responds to, BTW) what do you think Saddam would have done just after the sanctions were lifted? Open a flower shop? No way. He'd start working on WMD again, probably nukes.

Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm
...we ignore other countries who are threatening us with their nukes, and not when we ignore other countries with Al Qeada connections. Olive
I agree with you. The Iran and N. Korea situation is a serious cluster f**k. I have a hard time seeing a peaceful way out of the N. Korean crisis (thanks Clinton-oops! ). Which is just another reason why the time was right to take out Saddam when we did. N. Korea was already too far along in their WMD programs. We didn't have enough on Iran (although we may soon if they keep up their nuke ambitions). But with Iraq, you had a murderous leader who used WMDs against his own people in the past, WMDs that were unaccounted for and sanctions already in place from the UN. Taking out Saddam when we did was the right thing to do. Go Bush!
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Old 08-08-2003, 11:57 AM   #47
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Thanks Dread, this has been an interesting dialog for me as well. Itís nice to speak with someone who isnít aggressive but willing to discuss. I definitely think we can relate on some of these issues (and mainly that we donít want the US involved in things it shouldnít be).

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox Part of the case the was definitely about the threat. The reason that he was viewed as a threat was that he had used the WMD's before. He has acted irrrationally before. These weapons in his hands made him a threat. HIs attempted assasination of former President Bush made him a threat.

The last point the WHite House clearly cannot use because it makes it a personal vendetta. However, to me it is still valid.
He has acted irrationally before- but not against the US. If we disagreed with his using WMD against his people, we probably should have acted then. It's hard to forget who gave him those weapons in the first placeÖ

I agree with the part about it being a personal vendetta. It is reason to be wary, but not aggressive.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I agree with you here on some level. I do believe we violated international law by acting without the security council. Others here clearly do NOT and I understand their points. I believe we do not have to have permission to defend ourselves, so if we have to strike first so be it.
I agree with you also- and I understand the point of other people. If we were attacked, and the security council did not support us, I think we have the right to defend ourselves. But I donít think this situation called for that response.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
That said when we strike first WE as citizens must hold all of the politicians to the highest level of accountability. If the White House sold the Congress a load of crap, why aren't they going after the President in a big way? Why aren't they calling for an investigation? Maybe we need more time. I still think with the vote the way it was, meaning lopsided that the congress was 100% convinced this was necessary.
Ö. However, it is an enormous risk for a politician to stand up on their own and start accusing and asking these sort of questions, especially in a republican controlled (in both houses) congress. So it's sort of not surprising that, despite the growing amount of evidence of improper actions that not much has yet been doneÖ especially when anyone (from politicians to musicians- i.e. Dixie Chicks- to celebrities) who dissents is painted as anti-American, and harassed. This needs to change and hopefully it does, but the fact remains that right now itís very dangerous for anyone to come out as having a problem with what is going on. It seems the White House has created an environment that is particularly hostile to dissent about the war. This, I think, is a whole other thread ;-)

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Originally posted by Dreadsox Olive, I never meaned to imply that their nuclear program pointless. How old were you when the Iranian Revolution occured? Do you remember it? I remember it. Iran is no friend of this country at all and the thought of them holding these weapons scares the out of me. Yet, they have not through their actions in the last twenty years invaded another country unprovoked or used WMD.
Dreadsox, I'm not sure if you meant that to sound as condescending as it did. But I have to say, I find it demeaning when someone asks me how old I was during a discussion like this. Iíve had a coworker do it (regarding this same issue, which he obtrusively brought up in my office without invitation or desire on my part to discuss). Does "witnessing" an event automatically equal knowledge about it? This sentiment makes it seem like anyone (presumed) "young" shouldn't bother with grown-up stuff.

That said, I know you didnít say Iranís nuclear weapon program was pointless. But weíre treating Iraq as if they have already let loose some WMD on us, and ignoring Iran when we know what Iran is capable of. I understand what you are saying that Iran hasnít used them at ALL- but Iraq never did use them on us (while AQ, on the other hand, DID attack us).

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I am pretty sure that we are and were working with the SA governement. The SA governement publicly puts on a different face than they do behind the scenes. They are and have been supportive of the United States. The people living there however, hate the US.

I do believe we began to and are continuing to deal with Al-Qaeda. WE began that part of things 1st. 2ndly Iraq's influence on our foreign policy, ie Keeping Trops in Saudi Arabia, was/is one of the main problems that Al-Qaeda has. They believe that it is a sin for us(infidel) to be on their holy land. Taking care of Iraq after 12 years of waiting for the UN to was a very important piece of this. If a stable government can be places in Iraq we can remove our soldiers from the holy land, and MAYBE the target from our backs. I would not call the move against Iraq all of a sudden. Twelve years of resolutions, attempts to work with the UN, and plenty of warnings since 9/11.

Definitely, Al-Qaeda was angry about our troops being over there. Instead of leaving to pacify Al-Qaeda, we should be dealing with the two situations separately (post-war Iraq, and finding the miserable bastards of AQ).

I think post-war Iraq deserves another thread. For us to leave the middle east, weíre told we want Iraq to have a secure govt. But right now the infrastructure in Iraq is a mess. The people are not safe or secure or prosperous or happy. Islamic fundamentalists are right in line to take over. Yet if we leave, are we any better off? After all the men and women weíve lost, and all the money spent, and our economy is the worse itís been in years? But, it doesnít seem sending more troops (now to Iraq) would defuse the situation. Certainly controlling Iraq isnít the answer, even if we did ďliberateĒ them.. I know you didnít say we should send more troops and have stated that weíre doing a poor job post-war. But itís impossible to justify the war by saying 'at least our troops will leave the Middle East and not instigate AQ' when our troops arenít leaving the Middle East for the foreseeable future, and we will probably need to send in even more before it's all done... not to mention any troops we may need to send in to deal with a potential iran situation, or ones that we *should* send to clean up the mess we made in afghanistan... the only reason AQ is related to iraq in this discussion is because the white house continued to imply that it iraq was involved in 9/11 in order to raise popular support for an invasion.

I understand what you mean about 12 years of resolutions, etc, but there werenít any known WMD. So find them, and then go in there and do the job the right way. Without that precedence, I donít see proper defense behind the attack.

Good discussion,
Olive
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Old 08-08-2003, 01:51 PM   #48
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Olive,

I undersign every post of yours in this thread. Excellent stuff!
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Old 08-08-2003, 03:19 PM   #49
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I'm feeling so damn frustrated about all of this in the Middle East. Some of the people who have power there are good, but many are not. All of these problems are so old they're not going to be solved by changing someone's government, although this may facilitate some change on down the line. Quite frankly I'm petrified of a fundamentalist outfit taking over Iraq. Whew! It's overwhelming, all of the problems in this part of the world. I've been reading some books about Saudi Arabia, their government and especially the way they treat women. It's awful.
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Old 08-08-2003, 03:25 PM   #50
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Originally posted by oliveu2cm
Dreadsox, I'm not sure if you meant that to sound as condescending as it did. But I have to say, I find it demeaning when someone asks me how old I was during a discussion like this. Iíve had a coworker do it (regarding this same issue, which he obtrusively brought up in my office without invitation or desire on my part to discuss). Does "witnessing" an event automatically equal knowledge about it? This sentiment makes it seem like anyone (presumed) "young" shouldn't bother with grown-up stuff.
I think you read way to much into it. If you found it that way, I can only say it was not meant that way.
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Old 08-08-2003, 04:09 PM   #51
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Originally posted by ALEXRUS
Olive,

I undersign every post of yours in this thread. Excellent stuff!
Thanks Alexrus
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Old 08-08-2003, 04:10 PM   #52
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


I think you read way to much into it. If you found it that way, I can only say it was not meant that way.
Sorry to misinterpret Dreadsox. It is something that bothers me, perhaps I'm sensitive to it.
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Old 08-12-2003, 12:49 AM   #53
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
President Clinton most definitely deserves some of the credit for where we are today. It is not a debate over who is at fault but the failed strategy of sending missles into Afghanistan to hopefully hit Al-Qaeda leadership was obviously not the answer. There was clearly not an aggressive enough policy in going after Al-Aqeda. This is also President Bush's fault because he very clearly did not take the threat seriously, nor did Ms. Rice who clearly lied when they claimed they never immagined planes being used.

Under Clinton however, there was a change in the FBI and the CIA in which there were cuts in on the ground intelligence gathering. Many veteran intelligence people were passed over jobs because people were being promoted not based on the jobs that they did, but because of the race and gender. This caused many valuable people to LEAVE our intelligence agencies for the private sector. The loss of these people coupled with a move towards more electronic intelligence and less human on the ground intelligence left us open. This is detailed in Bob Gertz's bokk Breakdown and he makes and excellent case about the failures of the Clinton administration in this area over eight years.


Now as to the WMD. This administration did make its case that there was an immediate threat. There very clearly was not, unless the WMD's have been shipped to another country. The readings that I have done on this topic indicate that the United States has been operating BLIND in regards to Iraq since 1988 when the inspectors were last there. The inspectors were basically our on the ground intelligence. Yes we had intercepts, but without the on the ground intelligence, we went to war based on 1988's last inspections by the UN.

Like it or not, 5 year old intelligence was our best intelligence. There is no published link between September 11 and Saddam. The terrorist camp that we raided in Iraq was linked to Al-Qaeda, however, they were not an Al-Qaeda camp. They were a group of Iraqi's that were funded by Al-Qaeda and their main goal was to overthrow Saddam. See, Saddam and Al-Qaeda were not friends with each other because Saddam's regime show religious tolorance towards Christians.

September 11 is linked to Al-Qaeda because we have had troops in Saudi Arabia protecting our oil interests there. That is the link. IF we were not there it is doubtful that 9/11 and all of the incidents that Wolfwill listed would have happened. These events over the last twelve years fall on the heads of both the Clinton administration and the Bush administration. There should have been more pressure to have dealt with Saddam earlier rather than 12 years later. The fact is, President Bush should have finished the job in the Gulf War. Instead he stopped the war for his own political gain. Iran was not going to invade a UN controlled Iraq.

TO say that the administration made a case on a humanitarian level is somewhat true. They did mention that he was a bad man. They did not make it the central theme to their case for war. They did not stand in front of the UN and have Collin Powell speak about the fact that Iraq's administering of the Food For Oil program was killing more Iraqi's a year than the entire 1st Gulf War. They FAILED to make this the central part of their case.

The central part of the case was that the UN was not enforcing its own resolutions. The central part of the case was that we were in a different world after 9/11 and that there was an immediate threat to the United States and its interests. The people of the UNited States were led to believe that we had WMD. Very clearly Saddam wanted us and the world to believe it for some reason. Maybe for the security of his regime. I do believe that the US Generals thought there would be a chemical attack on the troops.

So where are they? If he did not have it, it made a great deterrence. If he did have them and moved them where are they?
Dread, the first time I read your post here I couldn't really figure out if you were defending the actions of the current administration or not. I just re-read much of this thread, happened upon your post again, and I still am not totally sure of where you're coming from. I composed some responses to parts of the above-quoted post, but I have decided not to post them because, quite frankly, they partially come from annoyance and frustration and they read, well, rather pissy.

Instead, I will simply say this: You are free to reference events of the late 1980's through the present, and you are free to implicate Clinton in your argument, but the fact remains: President Bush lied in making his case to go to war. I'm talking about the case he made beginning after September 11, 2001 and ramping up late in 2002 up until the invasion began on March 20, 2003.

From abcnews.com -- April 25, 2003:

"But what if Sept. 11 had never happened? Would the United States have gone to war with Iraq? Administration officials and others say no, at least not now.

The Bush administration could probably have lived with the threat of Saddam and might have gone after him eventually if, for example, the Iraqi leader had become more aggressive in pursuing a nuclear program or in sponsoring terrorism.

But again, Sept. 11 changed all that."

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/night...ow_030425.html
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Old 08-12-2003, 01:14 AM   #54
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Originally posted by pub crawler


Dread, the first time I read your post here I couldn't really figure out if you were defending the actions of the current administration or not. I just re-read much of this thread, happened upon your post again, and I still am not totally sure of where you're coming from. I composed some responses to parts of the above-quoted post, but I have decided not to post them because, quite frankly, they partially come from annoyance and frustration and they read, well, rather pissy.
I have seen so many innacuracies posted by both sides in this thread that it does look like I am riding the fence.

1) Clinton was more responsible for the AL-Qaeda and Iraq situation than Bush. HE had eight years to do something besides lobbing cruise missles.

2) Clinton decimated the intelligence agencies by A) eliminating on the ground agents and increasing electronic intelligence B) Promotions not based on the job you do but on your sex and race. This lead to many of the best agents leaving the agencies of the FBI and CIA. This information comes from "Breakdown" by Bob Gertz.

3) President Bush and his advisers were using 5 year old intelligence to make their case for war. NOT GOOD. Now we are seeing why. WMD are not in as large a quantity as we thought.

4) 9/11 IS directly linked to the fact that we have had soldiers in Saudi Arabia for 12 years to protect them from Iraq.

5) This administration DID mention humanitarian reasons for WAR. It was not their MAIN reason. They should have focused on the FOOD FOR OIL program as being corrupt and not working. It was killing more people than the two wars combined. Saddam used the program to oppresss his people further. The American public was not presented this case forcefully enough. In my opinion it should have been a CENTRAL part of the case. TO say the administration just came up with this after the war is NOT true however.

6) Al-Qaeda hated Saddam Hussein. They were not working together.

7) The terrorist camp in Iraq that Wolf mentioned to my knbowledge was indeed linked to Al-Qaeda, but they were a separate entitiy from Al-Qaeda. They were working to do anything other than Eliminate Saddam because Al-Qaed hated Saddam. So while Wolf is correct we raided a terrorist camp, he is incorrect that they prove that Saddam was linked to Al-Qaeda and 9/11.

8) I believe that he(Saddam) destroyed most if not all of his weapons. I believe that he thought he could deter other nations from looking at him as an easy target by keeping up the thought that he was armed beyond what he was. I believe that he did not think the US would invade without the UN. I think he miscalculated the effect 9/11 had on US FOreign policy.

9) WMD will be found. I believe it.

10) President Bush lied to make his case? I think that the administration is guilty of not listening to the CIA when making its case. I think more and more that there were many who had decided to go after Iraq and were scouring to find a reason that they could use to sell it. I am not ready to yet judge if the case was a lie.

You can PM me anytime if you are confused with something I said.

PEace
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Old 08-12-2003, 01:21 AM   #55
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They are not going to stake their political careers on a promise that they cannot keep.
theyre politicians.
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Old 08-12-2003, 10:04 PM   #56
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Here's how they're gonna find those WMD's next month

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...016856,00.html

"The former UN inspector hired by the Bush administration to find evidence that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction will claim in a report next month that Iraqi forces were ordered to fire chemical shells at invading coalition troops, according to US reports.
But David Kay, who heads the 1,400-strong Iraq Survey Group, has admitted he has found no trace of the weapons themselves, and cannot explain why they were never used.

One possibility is that the orders were part of an elaborate bluff, in the hope that they would be intercepted by the US and deter an attack. "
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Old 08-12-2003, 10:36 PM   #57
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One possibility is that the orders were part of an elaborate bluff, in the hope that they would be intercepted by the US and deter an attack. "
That was my theory in here a few months back. I was laughed at. It is looking very possible that he was indeed bluffing!!!!!
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