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Old 09-28-2006, 11:15 AM   #106
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Originally posted by maycocksean
^It's not a choice between one single language that all are forced to speak or THAT. Either we speak English only or we learn every language in the world? Come on now. . .

And do I have to point out AGAIN, that no one is making Justin or you or any God-fearing English speaker learn any other language.
You didn't notice the sarcasm?
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Old 09-28-2006, 11:35 AM   #107
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Their problems have more to do with government imposed isolationism, and we all know that. They're also ruled economically by an iron fist.
I know. That was my point. I'd wager that Papua New Guinea's problems are not strictly the result of too many languages either.

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Strongly disagree. We had to communicate in the dominant tongue in order to prosper in the long term.
Yes, but historically we've not had nationwide mandatory English only laws. English came to be "dominant" naturally if you will. Perhaps if the French had one the French and Indian War we'd all be speaking French. The dominance of English in the world has everything to do with our dominance politically and economically in the world and not the other way around. A similar comparision could be made to Greek during Greco-Roman times--another language that became dominant without a bunch of laws having to be passed. Rule the world, and your language will rule as well.



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Not at all. When we have those who want bilingual accomidations because they can't speak English, it is imposing their language on society.
I think you're bringing up a new issue here. Bilingual education is not what we've been talking about and there are a different set of issues for that subject then whether the sign should read "Goodbye (Adios)." Maybe it's been the fuel in your fire this whole time but it's the first time it's been mentioned.

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Here we have a brilliant story told by an America-loving second-generation Mexican American in a Hispanic-American publication.

No one's arguing that it isn't a good idea for people to learn the main language of the country to which they move. We all agree that it only makes good sense. And again, I really believe you overestimate the number of people who "don't want to learn English." My impression is EVERYBODY wants to learn English. (And I might add that even proponents of bilingual education may not be suggesting that some people should never ever have to learn English). We're simply arguing against the need for legislating it.
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Old 09-28-2006, 11:43 AM   #108
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Jesus Christ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have Fucking said it MANY FUCKING TIMES!!!!!!!!!!!! I do not wish for them to loose there Goddamn fucking culture!!! All I am saying is it would be nice for them to learn the language of there now adopted fucking country, Instead of spending 12 fucking years or longer not adapting. Nature adapats to it's surroundings but a person can't learn the language or learn a little bit??? Forget the fucking signs.
now.

I am all for cultural events and stuff so dont say I am some racists mother fucker. Rant OVER.
Easy, there. . .

Nobody is calling you a racist and no one is saying you want to take away anybody's culture.

I do question your assumption that "they" have no desire to learn English. Who are these "they" anyway? Have you met them? Have "they" told you "I want to live here forever and I don't ever want to learn English. In fact I want to force you to speak MY language?" (Though how "they'd" tell you this when they can't speak English is beyond me. Maybe "they" explained it in Spanish). And the person in at the counter who couldn't speak English. . .How long had they been in the U.S.? What was their attitude towards learning English? How do you know that person wasn't already in the process of learning English? Or was it just annoying that the person didn't know English when you wanted them to.
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Old 09-28-2006, 11:45 AM   #109
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You didn't notice the sarcasm?
I did. But since you've essentially been saying thesame thing without sarcasm all along, I responded to it in a straightforward manner. It was sarcasm to make your point, not contradict it and that's what I addressed.
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Old 09-28-2006, 11:47 AM   #110
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They is people in general (no racial prefrence) I have met many people who have been here for years and some still don't speak english. I don't want to force english on anyone. I am just saying for those who have been here for many many years and dont speak a word of english and depend on there grandchildren or children make an effort to learn some, hell ask you kids to teach you.
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Old 09-28-2006, 12:00 PM   #111
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They is people in general (no racial prefrence) I have met many people who have been here for years and some still don't speak english. I don't want to force english on anyone. I am just saying for those who have been here for many many years and dont speak a word of english and depend on there grandchildren or children make an effort to learn some, hell ask you kids to teach you.
Oh come on, give the old folks a break. The older people get the harder it is to learn new things. (My father in-law, a great man from the Greatest Generation still hasn't figured out computers). It's literally harder to learn a second language as an adult because your mouth is literally, physically trained to speak a certain language.

And why does it matter to you whether somebody else's grandpa speaks English or not? It's their loss, their inconvenience, not yours.
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Old 09-28-2006, 12:01 PM   #112
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I am talking about people who are in there 20's through there 40's and 50's.
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Old 09-28-2006, 12:08 PM   #113
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I am talking about people who are in there 20's through there 40's and 50's.
Well, even at that age, learning a second language is much harder. The best time to learn a second language is when you are child. I really wish I spoke another language. . . I'm so envious of those like yourself who do.

I agree with you that it is to their disadvantage not to learn English. I'm just not clear as to why YOU'RE so pissed off about it.
It's like being furious that people aren't flossing regularly. It's bad for them but how does that meaningfully disrupt our lives.

How does having Spanish words underneath the English words on the sign totally destroy our quality of life?
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Old 09-28-2006, 12:14 PM   #114
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let me ask you people something: do you speak the same english that shakespeare used to speak when he was alive?.. do you speak the same english that your grandparents speak?... I don't speak the same spanish that Cervantes did and I don't even speak the same spanish that my parents do... Maybe the differences are very subtle but they exist anyway.

It is curious that macphistoswannabe talks about language as it were an inmutable rock, when in fact is a living thing that changes with us. the cultural movements, inmigration, technology... all those factors have changed our language faster than we could imagine. I see kids using japanese and english words with all the authority, when I was in college, Japanese and chinese classes where very popular.

So, it is quite ridiculous to say that a language can be "forzed" or "replaced" in all the sense of the word. this is not an unilateral process, all the people demanding that any inmigrant should learn english doesn't have any problem to say "burrito" or "sushi" at the restaurants. so that's beyond laws and borders.
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Old 09-28-2006, 12:15 PM   #115
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It does not ruin our quality of life. When I made this post I was on topic and then went off topic about other things. I am not pissed off. I just want it to be easier for immigrants, illegal or not. Because if they dont put effort in other people will start getting irrirtated and spout off racial shit and then things get ugly.
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Old 09-28-2006, 12:57 PM   #116
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It does not ruin our quality of life. When I made this post I was on topic and then went off topic about other things. I am not pissed off. I just want it to be easier for immigrants, illegal or not. Because if they dont put effort in other people will start getting irrirtated and spout off racial shit and then things get ugly.
These are respectable, hard-working people, just like you and I. I think they know what's best for themselves. Of course it's not easy living in the US and only being able to communicate via children or grandchildren. Do you think anyone in their right mind would CHOOSE to have their lives be way harder than they had to? The point you're just not getting is what's involved in "learning another language." If you're so into helping these seemingly helpless people, then what is your proposed solution for them learning English? You're not willing to have your tax dollars print words on signs, so I'm assuming you're definitely not into tax dollars funding programs to teach immigrants. So what then?

You're not making anything easier for anyone, you're making it much, much more difficult and subconsciously encouraging a very ethnocentric attitude at the same time.
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Old 09-28-2006, 01:13 PM   #117
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If private business want to have signs and voice messages in different languages fine. If the government wants to do it also fine. I am for using tax dollars to help educate the immigrants. I would rather see the iraq war done already and use those billions of dollars spent on helping the immigrants and in return they should show what they learned. Because education is if not the most important thing in life.
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Old 09-28-2006, 01:15 PM   #118
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The difference is Tourists are here temporary.
The signage isn't. That was your concern tax dollars for signage. You are contradicting yourself.
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Yes but a person who is here illegally can ruin your credit and flee back hom or deny it was him, because he has no identity here in the first place.
Anyone here can deny that as well, doesn't matter it can still be tracked down. They don't track you down by your real ID, they track you down by your paper trail. There is no difference. Moot point.
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Old 09-28-2006, 01:23 PM   #119
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I have been waiting for you to respond BVS. I have changed my position on the signage.

My aunt came to Guatemala 2 years ago. She spoke limited english. She now has her green card and is applying for citizenship along with my cousin. She speaks better english now after taking ESL classes, which is availble for free at community colleges.
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Old 09-28-2006, 01:24 PM   #120
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Good for her, see these things are positive.
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