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Old 09-27-2006, 02:08 PM   #61
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Originally posted by adrball


You are a fine example and if everyone followed your lead then it wouldn't require legislation. But US citizens that I have worked with in the UK believe that the US is littered with people who are simply on the 'take'
Well, I'm embarassed by those US citizens, quite frankly. Yes, it would be great if everyone would take the time to learn the language of the country they are moving to, but the point I keep coming back to is that yes, I can learn Kiswahili because I can afford it and I can afford to spend a few hours in class taking time off from a job. I don't think it's right or fair to require people who are already trying to overcome economic hardship to learn a second language without providing any tax dollars to establish programs to do so, simply because it makes life more convenient for ME.
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Old 09-27-2006, 02:08 PM   #62
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BVS can you please answer my other questions from the first page.
That can't be answered without the original question of fear being answered.
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Old 09-27-2006, 02:10 PM   #63
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Yes, I know this, but it doesn't apply to anything I was talking about...
You're making unreasonable allegations of racism. I know you're smart enough to know the difference between race, language, and culture. You don't fool me.

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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Look like I've said before, not learning English is a disadvantage to those who move here. But it's their choice. That's all I'm saying. We live in a country built on immigrants coming from different languages, a pretty unique background compared to most countries. Yet why are we the only ones that get pissed off when there's multilingual signage?
The country built by immigrants stood firm as a result of accepting ONE language in which they communicate.

How can the Tower of Babel be a gift and not a curse?
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Old 09-27-2006, 02:16 PM   #64
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
You're making unreasonable allegations of racism. I know you're smart enough to know the difference between race, language, and culture. You don't fool me.
I haven't made any false accusations. In fact I haven't actually made any actual accusations yet. I'm still trying to get to the root of the issue.


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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

The country built by immigrants stood firm as a result of accepting ONE language in which they communicate.

How can the Tower of Babel be a gift and not a curse?
Your Tower of Babel analogy fails, for the point of the Tower of Babel story was not the different languages but goal of the tower. The goal of the tower was of pride and arrogance.

But nice try.
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Old 09-27-2006, 02:20 PM   #65
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
I haven't made any false accusations. In fact I haven't actually made any actual accusations yet. I'm still trying to get to the root of the issue.
What is it about the issue that you don't understand?
Should we impose our English on Spanish-speaking countries?

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Your Tower of Babel analogy fails, for the point of the Tower of Babel story was not the different languages but goal of the tower. The goal of the tower was of pride and arrogance.

But nice try.
The consequence of The Tower of Babel is that people could no longer communicate as a result of what they did. If we accept the imposing of any given foreign language, we can expect our country to regress drastically. That is why the analogy makes perfect sense.

The results are the heart of the matter, not the intentions.
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Old 09-27-2006, 02:33 PM   #66
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don't know if this has been mentioned already but the UK are very strict and getting more so, on immigrants "fitting into" England

before you're granted permanent citizenship you have to prove you can speak english either by certificate or taking a test AND you now have to take and pass whats called the "life in the UK" test before you can apply.
its all about making sure people understand what living in the UK is about and integrating properly and so includes such "valuable" questions like "what do you do if you accidently knock over someones pint in a bar?" with multiple choice answers that range from logical to absurd

i don't personally have an issue with expecting people who hope to settle in a specific language speaking country to learn that language - if i wanted to live in France i'd expect to need to learn french

should it be a forced requirement of a visa...? well not a temporary visa but i think if people are applying to settle in a country permanently then once again its not unreasonable to expect that, if they plan on taking the benfits of citizenship and presumably contributing to that country, that they at least speak its language.
worth bearing in mind with that is that it takes years of residence to apply for permanent citizenship - at least 5 years in the UK (except for rare circumstance) where you had to have a visa to start with - and after 5 years of living in a country one should know the language.
if they dont then its reasonable for the powers that be to question what benefit this person is going to bring by joining the country if they can't even contribute on the most basic level
this is especailly prevailant in england where citizens can claim all sorts of things off the government and non-citizens can't - if you're going to be using the country to your benefit then i think you should also be contributing back to the country and speaking the language is obviously a core requirement for this.

but once again, thats only really for permanent visas - if you were planning on going to a country to spend time there and see what its like - get experience, financial benfit etc - i wouldn't expect or agree with a language being enforced. only really if you decided after several years that you now wanted to make this country your home do i think its fair to enforce an understanding of the local language.

however, i really don't care what language you put your signs in though
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Old 09-27-2006, 02:53 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
What is it about the issue that you don't understand?
Should we impose our English on Spanish-speaking countries?
What are you talking about? Did you see the line of questioning I had for Justin?

Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

The consequence of The Tower of Babel is that people could no longer communicate as a result of what they did. If we accept the imposing of any given foreign language, we can expect our country to regress drastically. That is why the analogy makes perfect sense.

The results are the heart of the matter, not the intentions.
That my friend is some backwards logic. That's like saying, as a result of playing with fire you burnt your hand, but the fire is not the problem it's the burnt hand.
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Old 09-27-2006, 02:59 PM   #68
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I agree with what digsy posted. I have already stressed that no one has to loose there language or culture, just learn your now new native countries language. If they dont how can we communicate? Am I going to have to take spanish or italian or what ever so I can finally speak with them?
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Old 09-27-2006, 03:02 PM   #69
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Am I going to have to take spanish or italian or what ever so I can finally speak with them?
All coming back to your fear...
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Old 09-27-2006, 03:04 PM   #70
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justin...very fair point. agree
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Old 09-27-2006, 03:04 PM   #71
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It's not fear, but an inconvinence for some. I speak spanish, so where is the fear. I can understand people who speak in spanish where is the fear. I can read spanish where is the fear?

Have you travel to any countries in Central America? The most likely english speakers you will find are in the capitol. How would you fair in the country side??? Would they expect you to know spanish? Or Mestiso
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Old 09-27-2006, 03:06 PM   #72
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Originally posted by Justin24
It's not fear, but an inconvinence for some.
I'd like to see how you are truly inconvenienced?
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Old 09-27-2006, 03:07 PM   #73
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I have given an example earlier where it was an inconvinience. I finally had to speak to her in spanish. But what if it was some one else?
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Old 09-27-2006, 03:07 PM   #74
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Justin, if you don't want tax money spent on making signs bi-lingual, is it safe for me to assume you don't want money spent on helping immigrants learn English? If so, how do you expect them to learn a completely new language? Do they have to pay for it? What if they WANT to become American citizens and WANT to work in this country and pay our taxes and support our economy but we're turning them away because they can't read Moby Dick and we're too stubborn to help them?
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Old 09-27-2006, 03:11 PM   #75
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I am all for helping them learn english, and I am all for them keeping there native language. Those signs should be more for tourist purposes. If they want to become american citizens good for them. But they must remember the primary language spoken here is English unless you go to different neighborhoods, but in General it's English. LivLuv answer yes or no to this. When you and other say they pay taxes especially into the Social Security System are they using a fake or stolen SS#? Isn't that ID theft?

no one has answered my other questions that I have asked for in the begining.
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