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Old 01-20-2003, 10:51 AM   #1
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Say NO to this happening again (warning very graphic images and text)

Here are two links regarding what happened the last time the U.S. and coalition forces invaded Iraq.

http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-index.htm

http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0212/pt_index.html


There are going to be some posters that come on and offer an alternative view, that's fine, just remember that these are not of my own making, these findings and photos are from people who were actually there.

Not again!

Say NO to the U.S. using ITS weapons of mass destruction again.
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Old 01-20-2003, 11:00 AM   #2
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Wasn't Iraq's invasion of Kuwait in 1990 a violation of international law?

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Old 01-20-2003, 11:05 AM   #3
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Melon, please read throught the link to the International War Crimes Tribunal. There is more to the story than meets the eye. I don't want to recite it, I want everyone to read and think about it. It will take some time but it is worth the read.
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Old 01-20-2003, 11:11 AM   #4
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It's fascinating from a media culture standpoint.

Perception.
Representation.

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Old 01-20-2003, 02:46 PM   #5
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yup, its what war is all about.
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Old 01-20-2003, 05:58 PM   #6
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those first few pics in the 2nd link were from the Mutla Ridge at the kuwaiti border. i saw the same things in real life shortly following the gulf war. there was a stretch of road that was filled with burned corpses and dessimated tanks and trucks. most of the vehicles were directed away from kuwait and were therefore fleeing to iraq. the scene was nasty because the corpses looked burned in place.
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Old 01-20-2003, 08:13 PM   #7
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I was interested to hear the perspective of someone who had actually seen that first hand. According to testimony in the War Crimes Tribunal document I also linked to, these were soldiers and civilians who were fleeing back to Iraq after Hussein had issued orders to stand down, so by International Law they were no longer in active combat mode, hence should not have been attacked. Very troubling indeed.
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Old 01-20-2003, 09:22 PM   #8
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it's a terrible thing to shoot a man in the back
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Old 01-20-2003, 10:35 PM   #9
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I find it interesting that#1 Frontline did a series on the Gulf War and by their estimates 400-500 died on that road....not "tens of thousands" as according to the paper you linked to. Not that 400 makes it any better...... Where did all the people go.....according to Frontline, when the front and rear of the convoys were disabled, the soldiers fled from the vehicles out of harms way.


#2The Frontline info on the topic also said that the so called civilian vehicles were being driven by Iraqi soldiers. Iraqi's that were fleeing due to the US taking over, and not only were they fleeing, but fleeing with stolen items looted from Kuwait.



#3 We can debate if they are non-combatants all day long. We will have differing opinions on this issue.




War is terrible. The pictures prove it and speak volumes as to our capacity to inflict damage upon our enemy. That fact is not debatable.
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Old 01-21-2003, 05:11 PM   #10
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1. Given the choice of believing a potentially biased television program vs. a respected former US Attorney and witnesses including US military personnel entering sworn statements as evidence for an international Tribunal on War Crimes similar to that as held and respected for other war situations like Bosnia etc, I will have to say I would put more faith in the latter.

2. Persons fleeing from a city they occupied with stolen goods in no way deserve to be incincerated with weapons of mass destruction.

3. Whether they were non combatants or not as defined by International Law and the Geneva Convention is not debatable, and that's why the relevant sections of those laws were quoted in the document. There is no evidence that these individuals were still fighting, they were trying to return to Iraq. They were not confronted on the ground and asked to surrender, they were bombed from the sky.

Perhaps this is why the US is so vigorously opposing being subject to International War Crimes Tribunals??
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Old 01-21-2003, 07:07 PM   #11
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1. Only a few dozen bodies were found among the hundreds of vehicles along the so called "highway of death". This comes from well respected Persian Gulf Military Analyst Kenneth M. Pollack.

2. The USA did not use Weapons of Mass Destruction in the Gulf War. Studying the movement of the column, if it had not been interecepted, many of its troops would of been engaged against US armored forces coming from the west within hours. There is nothing to indicate that these soldiers had "surrendered" or were in fact "fleeing".

3. At that time they were engaged from the sky, US ground forces were not close enough to engage them. The Airstrikes were called in to destroy and disrupt them before they engaged any US ground forces.
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Old 01-21-2003, 07:11 PM   #12
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1. Given the choice of believing a potentially biased television program vs. a respected former US Attorney and witnesses including US military personnel entering sworn statements as evidence for an international Tribunal on War Crimes similar to that as held and respected for other war situations like Bosnia etc, I will have to say I would put more faith in the latter.
Frontline is a biased television program? Out of respect I did not attack the credibility of your source. However since you would prefer to call my sources biased it is simply amazing how many wonderful Anti-US sites I was able to find the report you linked us to on.

Anarchist Librarians Web
Socialists Worker
American Terrorism is American Tradition (Wonderful pic of the Nazi Emblem where the Stars are supposed to be on our flag)
Revolutionary Worker

Let's start here. These are very UN-BIASED places to find what you linked us to.

If you want to, I can start to rip on Ramsay Clark and how unbiased he is.

Frontline is one of the most respected programs right up there with 60 Minutes in the integrity department.

Quote:
Originally posted by gabrielvox
2. Persons fleeing from a city they occupied with stolen goods in no way deserve to be incincerated with weapons of mass destruction.[/B]
The really sad part here is, that according to everything I read on this topic, more of the Iraqi's were killed by their own hand on this road. Care to ask yourself why? I can explain it to you? Their own forces put mines in on either side of the road. They hoped to catch the Coalition Forces in a bottleneck on the road. They wanted force the Coalition to use the road so they could bottleneck them and force them off the road. Did You ever wonder why they Stayed on the road instead of driving off? LAND MINES placed by their own hands. I wonder how many of them were killed by their own hand. They hoped to do it to us. It was their strategy and it FAILED.

But I digress. They were soldiers. They were paid for by Saddam to LOOT and PILLAGE. They had civilian buses filled with STOLEN GOODS and Property. They had STOLEN any vehicle they could STEAL to get out of Kuwait City because they were losing the battle.

Quote:
Originally posted by gabrielvox
3. Whether they were non combatants or not as defined by International Law and the Geneva Convention is not debatable, and that's why the relevant sections of those laws were quoted in the document. There is no evidence that these individuals were still fighting, they were trying to return to Iraq. They were not confronted on the ground and asked to surrender, they were bombed from the sky.[/B]
The WAR was not over. Saddam had refused to sign the terms presented to him. We stopped even before he did.


SO please, lets not get into my source is better than yours. The number is somwhere between my 400 and your ten's of thousands.


Anyone who knows me knows I love a good debate on issues. This War Crimes stuff is NOT UNBIASED.
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Old 01-21-2003, 07:51 PM   #13
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1. Given the choice of believing a potentially biased television program vs. a respected former US Attorney and witnesses including US military personnel entering sworn statements as evidence for an international Tribunal on War Crimes similar to that as held and respected for other war situations like Bosnia etc, I will have to say I would put more faith in the latter.
Well, you opened this can of worms.


Ramsay Clark a respected former US Attorney:

#Was appointed Attorney General by LBJ to get his father to step down from the Supreme Court. LBJ wanted to appoint Thurgood Marshall and needed to get an opening.

# Daddy was a corrupt judge from the start receiving money from New Orleans Godfather Carlos Marcello even after making it to the Supreme Court. Marcello was an associate of D. Ferry, J. Ruby, Lee Harvey Oswald (3 suspects in the Kennedy Assasination).

# Investigated Black groups fighting for their Civil Rights. Gave approval to J EDGAR Hoovers attempts (COINTELPRO) to infiltrate said groups.

#Prosecuted Dr. Spock for advocating draft resistence in 1968.

# Screamed at anti-war protesters harassing LBJ at a campaign rally to stop criticizing Washington and take their protests to Hannoi.

# 1980 joined a forum held in "Tehran" called the "Crimes of America". Yes, while US Citizens were being held hostage he went to celebrate with the people who held them hostage.

#1986 After Lybia was bombed visited and had a cup of coffee with Col. Moammar Qadaffi in Tripoli. Nice way to associate with a terrorist.

#1989 Defended Lyndon LaRouche on the famous mail fraud charges. No comment. Great associate to have.

#1990 Gave Speeches in Copenhagen defending LaRouche. The speech, was published in it's entirety in the New Federalist.

#Represented PLO leaders in a suit brought by the family of Leon Klinghoffer, the elderly vacationer who was shot and thrown overboard from the hijacked Achille Lauro cruise-ship by renegade Palestinian terrorists in 1986. More terrorists.

# Defended Karl Linnas, concentration camp guard who had overseen the muder of 12,000 jews. Nice!!!!!!

# Joined the Workers World Party in 1990 to try and stop US intervention in the Middle East. This is a very UNBIASED Stalinist organization. This organization created the IAC, the organization that Clark now heads.

# Met President Slobodan Milosevic in Belgrade after he was brought up on War Crimes charges. After the meeting Milosevic called his guest "brave, objective, and moral."

# Represented a Rwandan Hutu militiaman fighting his extradition from the US back to Rwanda to face genocide charges.




I guess I will stick with Frontline in the unbiased department.

By the way, I emailed the photographer of the pictures you linked to. Very interesting guy who was nice enough to respond to me. He basically said that the pictures you linked us to, could not support that the US committed War Crimes, nor could they support that these were non-combatants, nor could they prove that the US used weapons of mass destruction. What they do show is the horrors of war.

Doubt I emailed him? He invited people to on the front page of his photo essay. I took him up on it.

Peace
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Old 01-21-2003, 08:00 PM   #14
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Very interesting Dreadsox.
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Old 01-22-2003, 08:14 AM   #15
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2. The USA did not use Weapons of Mass Destruction in the Gulf War.
That's hilarious, especially given the current application of the term.
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Interference is my Earth.
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Consequently, Earth is an experimental disaster.
 

If you keep going, you have only your self to blame

 


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