Same-Sex Marriage General Discussion Thread

[Popmartijn]

Now that I can see the posts again (as long as I don't go to the previous page), let's go on topic again.
This was an interesting thing I saw yesterday:
Bush '04 pollster: Change in attitudes on gay marriage across the board - POLITICO.com

Former President George W. Bush's pollster for his 2004 re-election, Jan van Lohuizen, has put out a memo to Republican operatives suggesting a shift in the way the GOP discusses same-sex marriage

“As people who promote personal responsibility, family values, commitment and stability, and emphasize freedom and limited government we have to recognize that freedom means freedom for everyone. This includes the freedom to decide how you live and to enter into relationships of your choosing, the freedom to live without excessive interference of the regulatory force of government."

But it looks like Romney didn't get that memo. Romney seeks evangelical votes; opposes gay marriage | Reuters

Romney went right at the latest hot-button issue, bringing much of the audience to its feet in cheers by declaring: "Marriage is a relationship between one man and one woman."

 

[JamietheEdgefan]

Feeling bad? She's old enough to have gained some knowledge, but chose for ignorance and stupidity.

Yeah, you're right. But even if it is wilful ignorance and hatred, that's still something to pity - that someone would decide to focus on hatred and not tolerance. What a sad existence that must be!

 

[Galeongirl]

I wonder how most Republican people would look at the change Romney made from the Bush administration. Would they claim he's being ignorant, or that Bush was too soft?

 

[AchtungBono]

Polygamy is a choice. Wanting to marry your brother is a choice. Wanting to marry your pet goat is a choice.

Being gay is not.

Of course being gay is a choice - no one is forcing you to love someone of your own sex, you do it because you want to - that's what a free choice is.

Take me for example, I have a lot of attractive female co-workers in my office and the fact that I don't sleep with anyone of them is because I choose not to, nor am I inclined to - BUT if I wanted to I would......because that's my choice.

 

[Galeongirl]

Of course being gay is a choice - no one is forcing you to love someone of your own sex, you do it because you want to - that's what a free choice is.

Take me for example, I have a lot of attractive female co-workers in my office and the fact that I don't sleep with anyone of them is because I choose not to, nor am I inclined to - BUT if I wanted to I would......because that's my choice.

How is that comparable? Being gay or not being gay has nothing to do with practicing it. For your example, you have a lot of attractive females, that said, you are attracted to them. Do you have a choice in that? No. You either are attracted to someone or not. The CHOICE of not doing anything with that is yours.

Nobody who is gay or who is straight does this because they WANT to. It's because they are.

 

[AchtungBono]

Are you serious? How did you get that from what I said? I was just showing how flawed your line of reasoning was.

As far as the polygamy argument, that doesn't even warrant a response. You are smarter than that, much smarter.

Well, I said that the president shouldn' have said anything that would alienate certain segments of the population and you interjected slavery into the equation - which really isn't the same thing.

As for Polygamists - why should they be discriminated against? Why should gay marriage be legal while polygamy isn't?

btw - thanks for the compliment - I think that you're very smart yourself....

 

[ElectricalStorm]

 

[Irvine511]

Of course being gay is a choice - no one is forcing you to love someone of your own sex, you do it because you want to - that's what a free choice is.

Take me for example, I have a lot of attractive female co-workers in my office and the fact that I don't sleep with anyone of them is because I choose not to, nor am I inclined to - BUT if I wanted to I would......because that's my choice.

So you're bisexual?

 

[Jive Turkey]

Of course being gay is a choice

Quite possibly the most ignorant thing I've read on these boards. I don't mean ignorant as in rude, I mean uninformed and unintelligent

 

[anitram]

Take me for example, I have a lot of attractive female co-workers in my office and the fact that I don't sleep with anyone of them is because I choose not to, nor am I inclined to - BUT if I wanted to I would......because that's my choice.

The fact that you are not inclined to means that you are not sexually attracted to them.

It's not that I have only slept with men by choice, it's because I feel no sexual attraction towards women.

Jeez, who in this day and age still thinks that homosexuality is a choice?

 

[digitize]

Jeez, who in this day and age still thinks that homosexuality is a choice?

Probably about half of the population of the United States

 

[BVS]

Well, I said that the president shouldn' have said anything that would alienate certain segments of the population and you interjected slavery into the equation - which really isn't the same thing.

As for Polygamists - why should they be discriminated against? Why should gay marriage be legal while polygamy isn't?

btw - thanks for the compliment - I think that you're very smart yourself....

Do you not believe that views of slavery being wrong didn't alienate certain segments of the population? Simple question.


I want you to take off the Bill O'Reiley glasses and look at this question from a logical standpoint:

Why should gay marriage be legal while polygamy isn't?

^What part of this question makes any sense to you? Could you subsitute straight marriage into the question and it still make sense? Let's try it:

Why should straight marriage be legal while polygamy isn't? Nope, that line of logic doesn't work at all. Two people getting married isn't the same as one person marrying 12 people.

Lets try and make stronger arguments please.

 

[Galeongirl]

Probably about half of the population of the United States

That is pretty damn disturbing..

 

[BVS]

I didn't hold my breath and die this morning, so I CHOSE to breathe.

 

[ladyfreckles]

Of course being gay is a choice - no one is forcing you to love someone of your own sex, you do it because you want to - that's what a free choice is.

Take me for example, I have a lot of attractive female co-workers in my office and the fact that I don't sleep with anyone of them is because I choose not to, nor am I inclined to - BUT if I wanted to I would......because that's my choice.

I suggest you read a modern child development textbook and actually look into the brain's development in the womb. You might end up thinking otherwise.

 

[deep]

Of course being gay is a choice - no one is forcing you to love someone of your own sex, you do it because you want to - that's what a free choice is.

Take me for example, I have a lot of attractive female co-workers in my office and the fact that I don't sleep with anyone of them is because I choose not to, nor am I inclined to - BUT if I wanted to I would......because that's my choice.

I am sorry that some people are rude and disrespectful to you because they think what you believe is wrong.

I think and hope we all can have a discussion based on what we believe and/ or think without resorting to a discussion style that discourages exchanges and turns to many posters taking personal shots at others because they have an unpopular opinion in here.

 

[Galeongirl]

I am sorry that some people are rude and disrespectful to you because they think what you believe is wrong.

I think and hope we all can have a discussion based on what we believe and/ or think without resorting to a discussion style that discourages exchanges and turns to many posters taking personal shots at others because they have an unpopular opinion in here.

Don't make me laugh. You're saying we're all being disrespectful when someone believes something that's clearly wrong? There's no such thing as believing or not believing whether being gay is a choice or not. It's been clearly proven in MANY studies that it's not a choice. So it's ignorant to believe otherwise. That has nothing to do with respect. Well, actually it does. It says a lot about the respect towards gay people. But of course, we're not being anti-gay here.

 

[deep]

now that I've got that ^ out of the way

I'd like to respond to the post

Of course being gay is a choice - no one is forcing you to love someone of your own sex, you do it because you want to - that's what a free choice is.

Take me for example, I have a lot of attractive female co-workers in my office and the fact that I don't sleep with anyone of them is because I choose not to, nor am I inclined to - BUT if I wanted to I would......because that's my choice.

I understand your point of view, I have heard others express a similar opinion.

and I do agree that you and others can choose to participate in gay behavior,


haven't almost all of us chosen to have a sexual experience with a member of our own sex, ourselves?
if one's body will respond to their own hand, another's hand, or an appliance does that make them gay,
if an altar boy is copulated by a priest does that may them gay?

 

[Jive Turkey]

opinion

there's that word again. It's a good one to evoke to justify stupidity

 

[corianderstem]

I refuse to respect an opinion or belief that is hurtful to others or flat-out wrong.

I might respect you for other reasons and might agree with you on other things, but I'm done with the whole "I respect your opinion" when it comes to stuff like this anymore.

It doesn't mean I hate you, it doesn't even necessarily mean I think you're an idiot. I just cannot respect those beliefs or opinions.

*this is the general "you," but apply as necessary

 

[melon]

Hah...I'm sure I've said it before, but it's worth stating again. It's absolutely delightful living somewhere where all this reactionary ignorance is settled and nothing more than a distant memory.

I do promise y'all that, contrary to what some of you might think, the world did not end, the sky did not fall, and civilisation did not collapse when the gays got full and equal rights here. Yes, it indeed does get better.

In the meantime, I do get a good laugh at all this tilting at windmills.

 

[deep]

hello Melon
good to see a second post from you,
it's been awhile, hope you are healthy and all is going well for you.

 

[deep]

active listening to other opinions, and even empathizing with that person, does not mean you agree with that opinion. Hopefully you can get to a place of dialogue, because one feels that they have not been dismissed at the onset.


Opinions are changing. Some of the old timers in here may recall Aeon, respectful dialogue with him and his "wrong" opinions most likely contributed to his current opinion.

 

[BoMac]

Sorry for breaking the thread, guys.

Of course being gay is a choice - no one is forcing you to love someone of your own sex, you do it because you want to - that's what a free choice is.

Take me for example, I have a lot of attractive female co-workers in my office and the fact that I don't sleep with anyone of them is because I choose not to, nor am I inclined to - BUT if I wanted to I would......because that's my choice.

In the most respectful way possible I say this: you've said some crazy, uninformed things on this site over the years. This may be one of the most egregious ones.

Being gay is not a choice. Those that are attracted to the same sex - have an attraction in the SAME way that one is attracted to the OPPOSITE sex - are born that way. They're born that way. THEY ARE BORN THAT WAY.

 

[cobl04]

Of course being gay is a choice - no one is forcing you to love someone of your own sex, you do it because you want to - that's what a free choice is.

Take me for example, I have a lot of attractive female co-workers in my office and the fact that I don't sleep with anyone of them is because I choose not to, nor am I inclined to - BUT if I wanted to I would......because that's my choice.

Why don't you try talking to someone who is gay? Or are you afraid you'll catch it?

 

[corianderstem]

active listening to other opinions, and even empathizing with that person, does not mean you agree with that opinion. Hopefully you can get to a place of dialogue, because one feels that they have not been dismissed at the onset.

Yes, I listen. But when all you get in response is references to the Bible, or comments about "ramifications," or mentions of polygamy with nothing in follow up as explanation, there's no more dialogue to be had.

Still waiting for many people (not just here) to give a reason that homosexuality and/or same-sex marriage is "wrong" that doesn't have its basis in religion.

 

[deep]

Yes, I listen. But when all you get in response is references to the Bible, or comments about "ramifications," or mentions of polygamy with nothing in follow up as explanation, there's no more dialogue to be had.

Do you remember AEON?

 

[corianderstem]

Not specifically as to your reference above. I can only assume AEON was actively participating in that dialogue, rather than ignoring questions others asked of him.


Edited to add: geez, I probably edited this dumb post 8 times. Oy.

 

[Pearl]

Still waiting for many people (not just here) to give a reason that homosexuality and/or same-sex marriage is "wrong" that doesn't have its basis in religion.

When you said that, I decided to look around for any non-religious arguments against homosexuality, if it existed. I came across some forums that mentioned Camille Paglia and how she believes no one is born gay. So I Googled Paglia and her theory and found out in the early 90s, she wrote a book called "Tramps and Vamps" which included an argument against homosexuality. I found a website that had bits and pieces of that essay. Basically, she seems to be saying homosexuals have a fear and disdain for the opposite sex - which is weird for her to say because Paglia is lesbian herself. What is she, a self-hating lesbian? Sure sounds like it. Also, Paglia blames gays for the AIDS epidemic, and not unsafe sex. So she must be out of her mind.

Anyway, that was one of the arguments against homosexuality that is not related to religion. As for gay marriage, some people were saying it would cause a strain on social security - as if there isn't one already!

So yeah, the big argument against homosexuality and SSM remains to be religion.

 

[corianderstem]

Huh, that's, uh ... interesting, Ms. Paglia. Thanks for Googling. Obviously, since I'm so fed up with "discussing," I sure wasn't going to Google it on my own.

I find melon's occasional posts from a saner land to be both reassuring and maddening .... but only because I'm so envious that such a place, where this is not a Big Deal, exists.

I'll use his post as my "happy place" on the topic.