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Old 10-10-2002, 03:19 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by ouizy
<----------against fertility drugs
Knowing some couples that currently struggle/have struggled to have a child, I understand the unique pain and suffering they live through. You really can’t fully appreciate this feeling until you try having children.

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Originally posted by ouizy
I get very angry when I hear about communities and companies coming out and sending support (money, diapers, cars in some cases) to families who have had 6 babies after taking fertility drugs. If the people cannot support this many kids on their own, they should have no right taking those drugs.
Careful. Most use of fertility drugs do not result in multiple births. While the drugs can cause multiple eggs to be produced at once, multiple fertilization is rare. You’d be surprised by how many people use fertility drugs at one point or another.



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Originally posted by ouizy
Abortion:getting rid of unwanted children :: Fertility drugs:bringing in unwanted children.
Sorry, I don't think this analogy carries. I doubt people go through the unpleasant fertility process for the sake of unwanted children.



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If you are going to limit one, you have to limit the other. I do pity those who cannot naturally conceve, however, I am against those who will do anything to conceve including bringing unwanted, unplanned, and unexpected children into the mix to be supported by others.
I agree with you to the point that people will go through the fertility process to add another possession to their household. I can just see it: house, car, yacht, progeny to inherit my fortune…

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Originally posted by ouizy
Referring to the title of this thread, respect for life, there are many who believe life should be respected no matter what *unconditionally* and many of those who believe this have very high conviction. There are also others who have no respect for life and are clearly evil, however there are many of us in between in the gray area who believe that we live in a modern world, are not all that religious, who beleive that we have to live our lives in a way in which we can keep control over own race as there may not be a higher power to do so.

We all have to be open-minded here and understand this...
Well, I think this opens a discussion of Relavitism, which is beyond the scope of this thread.

Peace.

PS - Ouisy - love the hat!
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Old 10-10-2002, 03:26 PM   #17
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It is a complicated issue, but it rest on whether the unborn are human and have the rights of the born, and not on "its my choice" or "its my body". Clearly at any stage that the unborn are defined as being human, abortion at that point and beyond would be murder except in extreme circumstances.
The principle of “choice” is one that is inconsistently applied in our society. Choice in association, hiring, firing, housing, economics, schools, etc. are all controlled by an overriding public policy. Public policy recognized that there are bad choices and people should not have the freedom to make those choices.
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Old 10-10-2002, 03:47 PM   #18
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A lot of those laws regarding unborn children were pushed by pro-life backers so that they could be used to say that an unborn child has the same rights as a human.
That I don't agree with.

And I was stating that a large issue with many pro-choice supporters is about the gov't having control over one's own free will to decide what to do with their own body, it may not be what the pro-life people are concerned about, but it is a large concern to many.
Like Screaming said earlier, at the moment of conception brain waves and heart beat are evident. This means life. I also agree about the soul being created at the moment of conception. Therefore, the unborn baby should be protected by the law, in the same way people who cannot fend/provide for themselves are protected by the law (the mentally retarded, for example).

I know the woman should be able to choose what's right for her body- but what about the child? Who will protect/fight for his or her life?
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Old 10-10-2002, 03:50 PM   #19
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One can never say that have the right to do with their body what they want if their actions with that body result in the unlawful death of another individual. Again, the whole "its my body" "my choice" is not the issue. The question is if and when do the unborn become individuals.

Laws in regards to the death of the unborn that happen from outside forces whether it be by accident or on purpose, have been in existence long before the whole Roe vs Wade decision. Anyone in the Pro-life camp which represents more than 1/3 of the population of the United States make a valid point in siting the inconsistency in the law, which allows for the prosecution of individuals found to be at fault for the death of a womens unborn baby and our prosecuted on the ground that the unborn is human, but claims the unborn is not human in regards to the abortion issue. The Pro-life camp has a very interesting point on this. I've not seen anyone in the Pro-Choice camp be able to resolve this inconsistancy.
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Old 10-10-2002, 04:12 PM   #20
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OK, my main beef with the whole "when does life begin" is that it is still not a proven or scientific fact of when that is, it leaves a lot of room open to interpretation. Including the question of "soul" and what that means to different people etc.

There is a question of what is life, and what is human life, what is it that we consider human, and based on that, at what point in a pregnancy does this happed or not happen to a fetus, and on and on and on and on...

As for the un-born baby/murder laws, I don't know any pro-choicers who think that there should even be a law on the books regarding that, and of course, again, I can't speak for *all* pro-choice ppl but in my area of knowledge, that's not an issue.
So I can't offer any thoughts on that for you other than I don't think it should be treated as murder.
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Old 10-10-2002, 04:15 PM   #21
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random facts.

• Day 1 – fertilization: all human chromosomes are present; unique human life begins

• Day 6 – embryo begins implanting in the uterus

• Day 22 – heart begins to beat with the child’s own blood, often a different type than the mother’s

• Week 5 – eyes, legs, hands begin to develop

• Week 6 – brain waves detectable; mouth, lips present; fingernails forming

• Week 7 – eyelids, toes form; nose distinct, baby kicking and swimming

• Week 8 – every organ in place; bones begin to replace cartilage, fingerprints begin to form;

• Weeks 9 and 10 - teeth begin to form, fingernails develop; baby can turn head, frown

• Week 11 – baby can grasp objects placed in hand; all organ systems functioning; the baby has fingerprints, a skeletal structure, nerves, and circulation

• Week 12 – the baby has all of the part necessary to experience pain, including the nerves, spinal cord and thalamus; the baby is nearing the end of the first trimester

• Week 17 - baby can have dream (REM) sleep

• Week 20 – the earliest stage at which partial birth abortions are performed
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Old 10-10-2002, 04:34 PM   #22
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But chromosomes, heartbeats, bones, limbs etc. aren't exclusively human and I don't consider the forming of chromosomes to be a defining element of humans. It may be a form of life but not a human being

To me, a human being is not about chromosomes, bones, parts etc. Those things are not exclusively human and to me do not constitute a reason to be counted as a human being.

That is what I mean by the interpretations of it, and that fact that scientists still argue about it is very telling.

(I don't have my medical books and research stuff with me at the moment and whenever I try to look for stats online I get a bunch of pro-life sites that are obviously going to be biased on the facts and I wanted to present some un-biased thoughts on this, but alas, for now I can't find any )
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Old 10-10-2002, 04:39 PM   #23
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i'm not sure how one can be biased in regards to facts but anyway...

i agree that scientists are still trying to determine some sor tof definition of life, but something i find interesting is that if someone is in the hospital, in a coma, brain waves are what they use to declare someone dead or alive.
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Old 10-10-2002, 04:57 PM   #24
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Some may say that life begins when the kids move out of the house. But that may be a different issue.

Thank you for the timeline Screaming Flower – it is hard to pick which stage life suddenly springs forth after conception.
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Old 10-10-2002, 05:07 PM   #25
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I mean biased in regards to them only posting pro-life scientists findings and not any other research.

And we can also take the discussion to another level by debating what is death and what is considered death lol
It's a big circle of questions and ideas.

If someone is in a coma and the plug on their life support is pulled, we do not consider the doctor a murderer.
Why?
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Old 10-10-2002, 05:14 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sparkysgrrrl
If someone is in a coma and the plug on their life support is pulled, we do not consider the doctor a murderer.
Why?
because they're brain dead. at least that's my guess.

you're right though. we're talking about things that are not consistently defined so this could go on forever.

i have to say that considering the subject matter this thread is going amazingly well.
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Old 10-10-2002, 05:15 PM   #27
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If someone is in a coma and the plug on their life support is pulled, we do not consider the doctor a murderer.
Why?
In a nutshell, the person was dying and technology extended the life. Pulling the plug removes technology.
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Old 10-10-2002, 05:31 PM   #28
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Higher Than Science

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Originally posted by Sparkysgrrrl


That is what I mean by the interpretations of it, and that fact that scientists still argue about it is very telling.
Scientists can't agree on many things- like how the earth itself was created, how our brains work (funny that the neurons in our brains are connected by 'synapses,' which means "gaps") or even how wildlife from the artic & the mediterranean can coexist in the burren in Ireland.

This issue, like some of those, I think needs more than science to explain.
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Old 10-10-2002, 05:31 PM   #29
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I had a philosophy professor that drew the line at where the unborn baby could begin to feel pain. Clearly once an unborn baby or even an animal can feel pain, one had better have an important justification to justify their infliction of pain on that entity.

Clearly I don't believe this is something that should be left to just anyone's interpertation. I don't think there is anyone who would want to condone infanticide or child abuse. I happy the Government does intervene to prevent these crimes, and those that commit them will often site reasons such as, "this is the way we discipline our childern, and its our childern, and no one has a right to interfere in how we raise our childern." The law today disagree's with such assertions. 150 years ago, the majority of the USA population believed that African Americans were sub-human and did not have the same rights as European Americans. They used their "difference of opinion" to justify their continued enslavement of African Americans. Now look at how people look at this issue today.

How will people look at the issue of Abortion hundreds or thousands of years from now when it may be possible for the unborn baby to grow and develop(even soon after conception) in an artificial womb outside of the mother? Very hypothetical I know.
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Old 10-10-2002, 09:03 PM   #30
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One idea put forth by Carl Sagan I never hear anyone discuss-

He suggested that one factor that makes us uniquely human is the ability to think, which would mean that we become persons when the cerebral cortex is in place which starts around the 24th to 27th week of pregnancy -- the sixth month.

Quote:
Scientists can't agree on many things- like how the earth itself was created, how our brains work (funny that the neurons in our brains are connected by 'synapses,' which means "gaps") or even how wildlife from the artic & the mediterranean can coexist in the burren in Ireland.

This issue, like some of those, I think needs more than science to explain.
True, but should we use religious/spiritual beliefs to legislate law?
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