Relgious stance completely offputting in posts

[VintagePunk]

I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you asking me who I'm holding her up against, when making the comparison, or are you asking for a list of her qualities and behaviours that I feel make her moral?

 

[AEON]

I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you asking me who I'm holding her up against, when making the comparison, or are you asking for a list of her qualities and behaviours that I feel make her moral?

The list. And the source where it mentions this list of choices are in fact considered moral.

 

[VintagePunk]

I should have known better than attempt to engage in conversation with you, when you're one of the main offenders of the copy-paste scripture quoting style of discussion, and the very subject of this thread.

Of course, your source is the bible, so according to you, you win by default, because you have this man-made tome around which you base your life.

I'm out, I'm not even going to attempt rational conversation with you.

 

[INDY500]

Ones of positive inquiry and free thought perhaps? An interest in the natural world and it's mechanisms is another trait to foster. Faith is the most overrated supposed virtue.

Curiosity and being knowledgeable are certainly positive traits, I would include them among prudence. You perhaps downplay the need for faith as it is a theological virtue of Christianity (all though certainly essential to most religions).
The seven virtues of Western thought being;

Cardinal Virtues
-- Prudence (common sense)
-- Temperance (self-control)
-- Justice (fairness)
-- Fortitude (courage)
Theological Virtues
-- Faith (believe in a Greater)
-- Hope (looking forward)
-- Charity (love, forgiveness)

 

[80sU2isBest]

I should have known better than attempt to engage in conversation with you, when you're one of the main offenders of the copy-paste scripture quoting style of discussion, and the very subject of this thread.

Of course, your source is the bible, so according to you, you win by default, because you have this man-made tome around which you base your life.

I'm out, I'm not even going to attempt rational conversation with you.

Vintage, you're misunderstanding what Aeon is saying. He's basically just asking how you know her morals are good. He's asking what is the standard by which you judge whether she has good morals or not. Aeon will freely admit that his standard by which he judges morals is the Bible, but he wants to know what you use, how you decide what's moral or not.

 

[martha]

I'm out, I'm not even going to attempt rational conversation with you.

You are now my role model.

 

[maycocksean]

Maycocksean, I'm not sure what is being said here. Could you please elaborate?

What I meant was that the Chinese atheists that I've encountered don't seem to have the anger against faith or belief that is often found in Western atheists, who often have a lot of bitterness due to negative experiences with people who claimed to be Christians (the "nasty Christians" I referred to) whether it was an oppressive church, judgemental Sunday school teachers, or someone like the lady that dazzlingamy described in her most recent post.

The Chinese atheist doesn't seem to have that baggage. At least that I've observed.

Which in a way makes them more open-minded to faith.

 

[AEON]

What I meant was that the Chinese atheists that I've encountered don't seem to have the anger against faith or belief that is often found in Western atheists, who often have a lot of bitterness due to negative experiences with people who claimed to be Christians (the "nasty Christians" I referred to) whether it was an oppressive church, judgemental Sunday school teachers, or someone like the lady that dazzlingamy described in her most recent post.

The Chinese atheist doesn't seem to have that baggage. At least that I've observed.

Which in a way makes them more open-minded to faith.

That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Diemen]

I do not doubt you are correct. I am just curious – since you made a comparative statement (“the most”) - according to which collection of morals are you comparing your child against?

The list. And the source where it mentions this list of choices are in fact considered moral.

AKA: The only morals that are worth anything are those that come out of the Bible.

AKA: My morals are better than your morals.


How nice.

 

[dazzlingamy]

OH PLEASE. Can we NOT have the 'morals come from the bible so if you don't believe in the bible why are you nice? you should just go around in your own filth killing everyone' speech. It's completely baseless and annoying.

Do you think the people before the bible was written had no morals? that they all walked around raping The egyptians seemed to go alright.

I'm a GOOD person. I am nice, and considerate. I'm sure religious people are too. But it doesn't mean god invented morals and thats where society gets them from. So please don't even try that argument again cause it DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

 

[INDY500]

OH PLEASE. Can we NOT have the 'morals come from the bible so if you don't believe in the bible why are you nice? you should just go around in your own filth killing everyone' speech. It's completely baseless and annoying.

Do you think the people before the bible was written had no morals? that they all walked around raping The egyptians seemed to go alright.

I'm a GOOD person. I am nice, and considerate. I'm sure religious people are too. But it doesn't mean god invented morals and thats where society gets them from. So please don't even try that argument again cause it DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

"All sects are different, because they come from men; morality is everywhere the same, because it comes from God."
--Voltaire

"Human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and can't really get rid of it."
--CS Lewis

"A just law is a man-made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of Saint Thomas Aquinas, an unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal and natural law."
--Martin Luther King

Made sense to these guys.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Curiosity and being knowledgeable are certainly positive traits, I would include them among prudence. You perhaps downplay the need for faith as it is a theological virtue of Christianity (all though certainly essential to most religions).
The seven virtues of Western thought being;

Cardinal Virtues
-- Prudence (common sense)
-- Temperance (self-control)
-- Justice (fairness)
-- Fortitude (courage)
Theological Virtues
-- Faith (believe in a Greater)
-- Hope (looking forward)
-- Charity (love, forgiveness)

Those virtues seem to be the products of romanticised romanticised Christendom but western thought predates Christianity and threads such individualism are consistent markers.

Rationalism, empiricism and humanism seem to be the virtues of the modern age and they do depart from those professed so intently in Christianity. I take exception to the idea that faith is a critical virtue in that it entails a willfull ignorance - acceptance in the wholesale absence of evidence - and I can't see how that is to be desired or aspired to.

 

[indra]

OH PLEASE. Can we NOT have the 'morals come from the bible so if you don't believe in the bible why are you nice? you should just go around in your own filth killing everyone' speech. It's completely baseless and annoying.

Do you think the people before the bible was written had no morals? that they all walked around raping The egyptians seemed to go alright.

I'm a GOOD person. I am nice, and considerate. I'm sure religious people are too. But it doesn't mean god invented morals and thats where society gets them from. So please don't even try that argument again cause it DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

I've always been frustrated by the "god put those morals within you even if you won't admit it" spiels always said in such a sickly sweet condescending tone too. When it comes right down to it, does it matter where they came from? All of us can believe whatever the hell we want, none of us can prove it. If you enjoy trying to prove it that's fine. Everyone needs a hobby. But proof of various god-stuff? That's why it's called faith -- you can't prove it. You also can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt some type of god thing doesn't exist.

It all seems rather pointless. Amusing sometimes, that's true (which is why I'm reading and posting in some of these threads), but ultimately pointless.

 

[indra]

frickin' double post.

 

[martha]

Made sense to these guys.

You are consistent in this thread, I'll give you that. A few quotes from other people, and that's all the opinion you have. Nothing from you yourself that can be discussed, no personal thoughts, just pithy quotes from the past.

 

[1stepcloser]

OH PLEASE. Can we NOT have the 'morals come from the bible so if you don't believe in the bible why are you nice? you should just go around in your own filth killing everyone' speech. It's completely baseless and annoying.

Do you think the people before the bible was written had no morals? that they all walked around raping The egyptians seemed to go alright.

I'm a GOOD person. I am nice, and considerate. I'm sure religious people are too. But it doesn't mean god invented morals and thats where society gets them from. So please don't even try that argument again cause it DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

I remember having the same argument on here with someone a few months back and they couldn't understand that i didn't get my morals from the bible or any other ancient scripture. They couldn't get their head round the fact that i don't need some irrelevant ancient manuscript to tell me how to live my life

I empathise with your frustration wholeheartedly.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by AEON


I do not doubt you are correct. I am just curious – since you made a comparative statement (“the most”) - according to which collection of morals are you comparing your child against?

The list. And the source where it mentions this list of choices are in fact considered moral.

OH PLEASE. Can we NOT have the 'morals come from the bible so if you don't believe in the bible why are you nice? you should just go around in your own filth killing everyone' speech. It's completely baseless and annoying.

Do you think the people before the bible was written had no morals? that they all walked around raping The egyptians seemed to go alright.

I'm a GOOD person. I am nice, and considerate. I'm sure religious people are too. But it doesn't mean god invented morals and thats where society gets them from. So please don't even try that argument again cause it DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

I remember having the same argument on here with someone a few months back and they couldn't understand that i didn't get my morals from the bible or any other ancient scripture. They couldn't get their head round the fact that i don't need some irrelevant ancient manuscript to tell me how to live my life

I empathise with your frustration wholeheartedly.

My my, what reactions; and yet, none of you have answered the question.

From where do your morals originate?

 

[dazzlingamy]

Uhm, from my mother and society and the way my personality is. None of them are influenced by the church. and there were morals before 2000 years ago and the bible teachings so its not a valid point.

Just because the bible says 'blah blah' doesn't make it 1. fact 2. the reason why.

It would be nice to discuss with someone who can see things clearly, instead of clouded up with a silly little book.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Uhm, from my mother and society and the way my personality is. None of them are influenced by the church. and there were morals before 2000 years ago and the bible teachings so its not a valid point.

Where did your mother get her morals? Where did society get its' morals?

 

[1stepcloser]

I wish Bill Hicks was still alive

 

[TheQuiet1]

If none of you mind me saying so, I think this thread has spiralled off-topic. Correct me if I'm wrong but surely the point of the original post was to question the use of quoting Scripture in FYM threads when it's irrelevant to many people here who aren't Christians. Yet instead it seems to have descended into the usual Religion versus Atheism free-for-all. I always find such discussions both exhausting and pointless. It all boils down to one simple thing:

You either believe or you don't.

So when it's that simple what's there to discuss? The answer is usually nothing. All that usually happens is everyone ends up feeling they have to justify their beliefs. And why on Earth should they? Why on Earth should I have to justify my own beliefs to you only to have them dismissed as stupid and baseless? And why on Earth should you have to justify your beliefs to me only to have them dismissed as immoral and have me crying, "You'll rot in Hell you fecking Heathens" whilst beating you to death with a hefty Pulpit Bible? The answer is you shouldn't.

People then tend to get all tetchy and upset (as all faith and none really is a very important thing to most people), things get a bit heated and personal and as a result before the thread just ends up getting locked.

So to go all the way back to what I think was the original question:

I'm totally with U2Dem on this. Faith is an incredibly personal thing. Perhaps it's the denomination I belong to but I've always felt that being a good Christian isn't about applying your beliefs to everyone else's behaviour. It's about living the best Christian life you can, nevermind about what 'er next door is up to! Yes, Christianity is an evangelical religion but at my chapel we've been told time and again that the way to convert people (it sounds sinister, I know) is to simply live a good Christian life yourself and set a good example to others. Then when people see how content you are, it might generate an interest in religion within them. You specifically DO NOT try to press-gang people into becoming a Christian. I know all the atheists are probably thinking such an idea is ridiculous and some Christians perhaps disagree with it but it makes sense to me (remember after all, that the 10 Commandments are not: "Everyone shall not" but "YOU shall not") and is one of the many, many reasons why I'm finding so much more to love about my denomination than dislike.

So with all this in mind Dazzling Amy I think I agree with you. Especially with the thread in question it was inappropriate to quote Scripture. My religion might influence my moral code (as do many things I hasten add. I'm sure you'll all be relieved to know that I do have a mind of my own!) but to express my views and opinions purely through quoting Scripture, I think that just puts people's backs up unnecessarily. It sort of alienates non-believers from the discussion really, doesn't it? Because what can non-believers really argue back with that isn't going to come across as hostile to religion?

Ick, I've spend so long typing this out and deleting other bits and then retyping it again then deleting it again, and I still don't think I've put across my feelings accurately. So I'm sorry if the first part of my post comes across as condescending and I'm sorry if the second part is confusing and doesn't make a great deal of sense but frankly, I just want to stop editing this bloody post and send it!!!

 

[VintagePunk]

Where did your mother get her morals? Where did society get its' morals?

Like I posted in another thread, evolutionary psychology points toward a combination of inherency, along with the passing down of certain qualities/beliefs from generation to generation that suit the specific culture.

I'd add more, but I'm off to a meeting.



Great post, TheQuiet1

 

[AEON]

evolutionary psychology points toward a combination of inherency, along with the passing down of certain qualities/beliefs from generation to generation that suit the specific culture.

Please forgive us "skeptics" that don't want to put all our moral eggs into this wet paper basket.

 

[INDY500]

Those virtues seem to be the products of romanticised romanticised Christendom but western thought predates Christianity and threads such individualism are consistent markers.

Rationalism, empiricism and humanism seem to be the virtues of the modern age and they do depart from those professed so intently in Christianity. I take exception to the idea that faith is a critical virtue in that it entails a willfull ignorance - acceptance in the wholesale absence of evidence - and I can't see how that is to be desired or aspired to.

The 4 cardinal (latin for "hinge of a door") virtues are derived from Plato and were incorporated into church teachings in the 4th century by the "doctors of the church"; St Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine of Hippo and Gregory I.

As for faith...

All the strength and force of man comes from his faith in things unseen. He who believes is strong; he who doubts is weak. Strong convictions precede great actions. The man strongly possessed of an idea is the master of all who are uncertain or wavering. Clear, deep, living convictions rule the world.
-- James Freeman Clarke

Regardless of what you believe in, you must have faith. As a lover of terribly fast cars I think this sums it up best for me.

Faith and doubt both are needed - not as antagonists, but working side by side to take us around the unknown curve. --Lillian Smith

A__wanderer, just guessing, but you must read Nietzsche.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Like I posted in another thread, evolutionary psychology points toward a combination of inherency, along with the passing down of certain qualities/beliefs from generation to generation that suit the specific culture.

For hundreds of years, the Waodani tribe in Ecuador had a very homicidal moral and value code, in which murder accounted for 6 out of 10 deaths in the tribe.

Is that a "good" moral code to live by? No? Why not? Where do you get that defining value that says it is not? From the generations of society that passed it down to you? Why is that value any better than the murderous values passed on by the generations of the Waodani tribe?

 

[martha]

Please forgive us "skeptics" that don't want to put all our moral eggs into this wet paper basket.

And yet that basket hasn't doen too badly for the rest of the unChristian world, has it?

 

[INDY500]

I wish Bill Hicks was still alive

Bill Hicks went to my High School. Used to go see him all the time at clubs in Houston in the early and mid 80's. Check out my "location", third mall from the sun. Sound familiar?

You ever noticed how people who believe in Creationism look really unevolved? You ever noticed that? Eyes real close together, eyebrow ridges, big furry hands and feet.
"I believe God created me in one day"
Yeah, looks liked He rushed it.

I miss Hicks all the time.

 

[INDY500]

You are consistent in this thread, I'll give you that. A few quotes from other people, and that's all the opinion you have. Nothing from you yourself that can be discussed, no personal thoughts, just pithy quotes from the past.

Funny, A__Wanderer had no trouble finding "my opinion" and responding to my "personal thoughts" EXACTLY THREE POSTS ABOVE YOUR DEEPLY INSIGHTFUL CONTRIBUTION.

 

[AEON]

And yet that basket hasn't doen too badly for the rest of the unChristian world, has it?

I suppose the 20 million Russians that were killed under Stalin might think it has.

 

[martha]

I suppose the 20 million Russians that were killed under Stalin might think it has.

That's it? That's the example, in all human history, of how nonChristians are screwing up? Can we talk about all the Crusaders did in the name of Christ then?

You really are a smug thing, aren't you?