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Old 10-29-2006, 06:59 PM   #31
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
At least scripture is grounded, when abence of faith in God is matched by same opposition in reason by embracing mysticism and alternative sprituality masqued in pseudo-science it is equally bad.

Atheism does not by definition equate to reason.
There are reasonable, intelligent people representing every ethos. Some of the brightest minds of the past century believed in at least some sort of God, while others take a firm stance that there is no God. The belief or disbelief in God is not simply a matter of intelligence (although logic and reason do play a role).

As we all know, I am one the main perpetrators of Scripture quoting. I am probably the reason this particular thread was started. Believe it or not, I do try to use quotes within the context of the thread and to offer support for why I believe what I believe about any given subject. The Bible is the authority in my life; it is only natural for me to quote it. I have also quoted from texts other than Bible. It all depends on the nature of the discussion and what exactly is being addressed.

I do understand how some can think all Christian are basically idiots. I used the think the same way about fifteen years ago. On the surface, what Christianity teaches seem simple minded and even ludicrous. But like I posted earlier in another thread, somehow, God sometimes gets the Message through to people like me.
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Old 10-29-2006, 09:44 PM   #32
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Re: Re: Relgious stance completely offputting in posts

Quote:
Originally posted by VertigoGal
But that's just a little unnecessary and I can't believe no one's mentioned how offensive this bit is. Did anyone actually read past the first paragraph?
I thought I did mention it??
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Old 10-29-2006, 09:52 PM   #33
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Re: Re: Re: Relgious stance completely offputting in posts

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Originally posted by redhotswami


I thought I did mention it??
yeah you did. sorry I didn't mean it as an insult to the other people who'd replied. I just thought more people would've been more upset by those comments in general, that's all I meant I guess.
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Old 10-29-2006, 10:00 PM   #34
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
I think FYM has single handedly turned certain people off for life.


it's interesting ... i think FYM has made me much more respectful towards the thought processes and rigorous thinking that many individual Christians apply to Scripture and to themselves and the world (like a certain poster who is sadly missed these days), but since the conclusions that are so often drawn seem so divorced from reality and so fundamentally flawed, it has turned me OFF from Scripture itself and convinced me that, yes, it really is a bunch of words in a book written down by a bunch of people who were trying to start a religion. ironically, it's through the respect i have for individual posters in FYM that has revealed to me that there is no such thing as Scriptural inerrance and therefore authority.
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Old 10-29-2006, 10:01 PM   #35
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Relgious stance completely offputting in posts

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Originally posted by VertigoGal


yeah you did. sorry I didn't mean it as an insult to the other people who'd replied. I just thought more people would've been more upset by those comments in general, that's all I meant I guess.
No worries! I wasn't insulted at all.

I have a terrible command of the english language and am notorious for my incoherent blabbing. I'm trying to work at it though, so I just wanted to be sure I was understood
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Old 10-29-2006, 10:07 PM   #36
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Originally posted by dietcokeofevil
Unfortunately, my aversion to Christians applies to atheists as well. They are just as dogmatic, just as aggressive, and just as condescending in tone.

No thanks.
I agree with this with one big exception -- I would qualify the statement with the word some prior to both Christians and atheists. Yes, some Christians are complete fuckwits. Some atheists are complete fuckwits. Some members of each and every group of people you can think of are complete and utter fuckwits. But not all.

I try to steer clear of the fuckwits.
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Old 10-29-2006, 10:59 PM   #37
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer


"If religion were true, its followers would not try to bludgeon their young into an artificial conformity; but would merely insist on their unbending quest for truth, irrespective of artificial backgrounds or practical consequences."

- H. P. Lovecraft
I actually really like this quote. And I'm a Christian.
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Old 10-29-2006, 11:01 PM   #38
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I think Amy was just frustrated and blowing off some steam. I'm sure she didn't necessarily mean to be as harsh as she was.

One might argue whether starting a new thread was the appropriate format for doing that, but on the whole, I get it.

Give her a break, I say.
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Old 10-29-2006, 11:13 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




it's interesting ... i think FYM has made me much more respectful towards the thought processes and rigorous thinking that many individual Christians apply to Scripture and to themselves and the world (like a certain poster who is sadly missed these days), but since the conclusions that are so often drawn seem so divorced from reality and so fundamentally flawed, it has turned me OFF from Scripture itself and convinced me that, yes, it really is a bunch of words in a book written down by a bunch of people who were trying to start a religion. ironically, it's through the respect i have for individual posters in FYM that has revealed to me that there is no such thing as Scriptural inerrance and therefore authority.
I found this interesting, actually. My mom was just asking me last night what I would tell someone to explain why I believe in the Bible (We've been reading Cathleen Falsani's book The God Factor together and discussing it via e-mail and phone and she has had a reaction similar to dazzlingamys except in reverse. She kind of got tired of the "unbelievers" in the book and sent me an e-mail that reminded me a lot of the post that started this thread). I told her that I would say it's because of the personal experience I've had with God.

For me Scripture is primarily how I grow in my experience with God and my reasons for believing in it are experiential. I don't use the Bible as a science or history text book (though I'm sure there are things in it that may--or may not--be supported by history or science). No one would use the love letters my wife and I write to each other as a source of historical or scientific authority and I wouldn't expect anyone to use the Bible--God's "love letter" so to speak in the same way.

Well she wrote me back asking what other evidence I would offer to someone who asked besides my experience and I haven't written her back yet, but I'm not sure that I would try to offer any other evidence beyond that.

At any rate, the fact that you have dismissed Scripture as a reliable source of information about God should give all of us who are believers pause as we consider how we use the Bible on this forum.
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Old 10-29-2006, 11:55 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
At any rate, the fact that you have dismissed Scripture as a reliable source of information about God should give all of us who are believers pause as we consider how we use the Bible on this forum.
A huge pause.
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Old 10-30-2006, 12:04 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra

I try to steer clear of the fuckwits.
Hallelujah sister!
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Old 10-30-2006, 12:09 AM   #42
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Re: Re: Relgious stance completely offputting in posts

Quote:
Originally posted by Maoilbheannacht
Does U2's lyrics, which use scripture or reference scripture often bother you? Does it piss you off when U2 sing praise to God or pray for others during the middle of their concerts?
This wasn't adressed to me, but I've been thinking about it. If U2 used Scripture to beat people like some of the Christians do in here, yeah, it would piss me off. If they used it to defend narrow-mindedness and smug self-righteousness like some of the Christians do in here, yeah it would piss me off.
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Old 10-30-2006, 12:11 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
For me Scripture is primarily how I grow in my experience with God and my reasons for believing in it are experiential. I don't use the Bible as a science or history text book (though I'm sure there are things in it that may--or may not--be supported by history or science). No one would use the love letters my wife and I write to each other as a source of historical or scientific authority and I wouldn't expect anyone to use the Bible--God's "love letter" so to speak in the same way.

Well she wrote me back asking what other evidence I would offer to someone who asked besides my experience and I haven't written her back yet, but I'm not sure that I would try to offer any other evidence beyond that.

At any rate, the fact that you have dismissed Scripture as a reliable source of information about God should give all of us who are believers pause as we consider how we use the Bible on this forum.


a fascinating response. i LOVE the idea of viewing scripture less as a textbook/guidebook/owner's manuel and more as a conversation, a dialogue between man and God in which the reader must always be in constant dialogue. THAT i could get into, it's the presentation of mandates derived from Scripture that i find so off-putting.

but that is very much where i stand. i have found myself reading many posts from several different highly intelligent posters and admiring the logic and rigor behind what i find to be a thoroughly absurd conclusion.

perhaps if we all viewed all our conclusions as products of dialogue, as opposed to the unearthing of inerrant truth, we'd all find many more points of commonality along the lines of mutual struggle.
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Old 10-30-2006, 12:31 AM   #44
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I hear what people on this board are saying, on both sides. (As usual, I hope.) Part of me hears the resentment of the relentless quoting of scripture without any thought or prayer given to its context and meaning, and the ways passages have been misinterpreted and misappropriated across millennia. That's a huge problem. I think if people on FYM feel led to post scriptures and engage in scriptural debate, they ought to at least realize that posting scripture with some "god told me so" attitude is not going to pass muster. Many people here don't care. (And if you think about it, it's not what Jesus' disciples did. Paul spoke to his audiences in their language, using their common points of reference.)

At the same time, you have to admit that there is a degree of antagonism in FYM towards Christians/Christianity that certainly rears its ugly head more than often. It's why I don't post in here very often anymore. Browsing through some of the recent threads and seeing strongly implied (if not downright asserted) comments that people who don't see things a certain way can't think/don't get it/aren't educated/etc. is just as problematic and antagonistic. (Let's face it -- this entire thread is based on a couple of huge presumptions and judgment calls, blowing off steam as much as it may have been.)

I've been tempted to post lately, but really -- in the end, what's the point? Sensible voices of reason get drowned out in a cacophony on both sides, and the more antagonism I see -- again, on both sides -- the more frustrated I feel. And it's not just one side that's being antagonistic. If both sides saw it, perhaps we'd start getting somewhere. But until we do, the loud, obnoxious, antagonistic voices of the religious and the loud, obnoxious, antagonistic voices of those who aren't will only get louder, and the world they create will only get smaller.
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Old 10-30-2006, 02:49 AM   #45
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Thank you for all your responses, on both sides. Although I don't believe I was being offensive when saying i couldn't see myself in a long term relationship or a CLOSE friendship with someone who is as religious and dogmatic as some christians i've seen. Its the truth as we have such different world views i don't think we would be able to actually make a relationship work. It is just my opinion.

MY anger and annoyance is not to ALL religious people, i don't care if someone has religion, but i was trying to explain (probably quite shittily) how *I* can't understand how someone can be religious and live their life by the bible or sermons or whatever. I honestly can't understand it, and therefore wanted to voice my opinion, because i dont know if some religious people actually GET that i don't believe and that when arguments or discussions are interlaced with scripture or 'god's word' or whatever, it means nothing to me. Also, i feel that more and more this 'good and evil' thing coming out, which sort of weirds me out a bit.

I'm sorry if i came accross arrogant, it wasn't my intention, i was frustrated and annoyed, and im still trying to write proper posts like some people in here.

I just wanted to say how oppressive it sometimes feels in here.

But instead of pointing fingers and going 'you're both as bad as each other' why not offer some comments or something positive?
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