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Old 07-14-2007, 11:37 AM   #76
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Originally posted by Liesje


I'm not really sure what you're going for here, but just so that we're all clear, pets bought at pet stores are from puppy mills. They (and their parents) have also suffered disgusting conditions of mistreatment, abuse, and neglect. It's irresponsible to buy a dog from a place like Petco (which doesn't sell dogs or cats, but...whatever). Pet store puppy = puppy mill puppy.
You know, I sometimes feel a bit guilty that we got our two Shih Tzus from a pet shop. We felt sorry for them when we first saw them because they looked so miserable cooped up in their little pen. Our hearts were in the right place. I know that buying puppies from pet shops out of compassion for their living conditions only perpetuates the puppy mill problem. However, it gets on my nerves when I see people berating others for buying pet shop puppies. What's done is done. The vet's assistant tried to tear us a new arsehole when we took the Shih Tzus in for their vaccinations and he found out they came from a pet shop. We eventually had to tell him to bloody well calm down. Yes puppy mills are horrible and yes, buying from pet shops doesn't help the problem. Yet, at the end of the day, we gave two little puppies a loving home. They could have stayed in that pet shop, growing older and learning more bad habits until they were dumped off at the humane society. But no, we took them into our home, gave them all the love and attention any puppy could ever hope to have. Got them well-socialised, kept them excercised. And still, that vet's assistant had the audacity to suggest that we were bad owners. Bad owners are the people who leave their dogs tied up outside during a blizzard. Bad owners are the people who abuse their dogs with physical blows that scar them for life. Bad owners are not the people who feel compassion for two little faces staring up at them from a tiny glass display case and decide to save them from a life of misery.

So even though I do sometimes feel guilty that we inadvertently contributed to the puppy mill ring by buying our Shih Tzus from a pet shop, I do not regret it. We can't save all of them, but at least we saved two. And they turned into two of the sweetest little dogs one could ever hope for. I couldn't imagine them sitting at a shelter somewhere, unloved and uncared for. Or in the home of another potential buyer who might have neglected them.


As for everything else in this thread, the whole cows being boiled alive thing sounds like a load of rubbish.
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Old 07-14-2007, 12:12 PM   #77
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Originally posted by Sloane Peterson


I am not completely vegan, but I have read that humans are the only animal that drinks another animal's milk that is usually reserved for that animal's offspring. It's odd to think that we drink the milk that is naturally produced within the body for the offspring of that animal.
I'm not a vegetarian nor would I ever become one, but I agree on this point.

We have huge rates of lactose intolerance in some parts of the world - generally those where populations lived alongside cows for a very long time. There has also been research suggesting that giving cow's milk to babies dramatically increases rates of juvenile diabetes.

The dairy industry has a very powerful lobby and they've managed to convince us that we need ___ servings of milk and milk products per day. Why? It is perfectly possible to get your sources of calcium from other things. Dairy products are the only things on the food pyramid that are required despite enormous numbers of people being intolerant of them. And no, the solution is not to take digestive enzymes, it's to stay away from dairy.

I am lactose intolerant and I still remember being force fed milk in school as a little kid. And then the consequences thereof. It's appalling.
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Old 07-14-2007, 12:13 PM   #78
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Originally posted by butter7


If you could talk to the beautiful beautiful plants and fruits, would you continue to eat them?

Do you think vegetables are liveless?

I'm okay with people choose to eat something they like, and avoid something they don't like. But something that some vegetarian trying to sell is completely ridiculous.

Do you know how people tortured the trees to get more fruit from them? Force plants to produce food for us all year long no matter what season it is?

Do you think the vegetables likes to be eaten by human? Do you think they produce fruit is for your table?

For your guys, animals have live, and plants have no life at all?

And if you really care about lives, quit eating vegetables too.
So you don't eat vegetables or animals or fruits? Concerning plants...at least fruits come off of trees and do not have to kill the entire plant to eat them. Vegetables are similar. Animals eat plants as well...but animals don't eat humans. Insects, birds, animals, and humans all eat plants. But, not all species eat animals.

I understand what you are saying, but are you just trying to defend being a meat eater?
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Old 07-14-2007, 03:30 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by butter7


If you could talk to the beautiful beautiful plants and fruits, would you continue to eat them?

Do you think vegetables are liveless?

I'm okay with people choose to eat something they like, and avoid something they don't like. But something that some vegetarian trying to sell is completely ridiculous.

Do you know how people tortured the trees to get more fruit from them? Force plants to produce food for us all year long no matter what season it is?

Do you think the vegetables likes to be eaten by human? Do you think they produce fruit is for your table?

For your guys, animals have live, and plants have no life at all?

And if you really care about lives, quit eating vegetables too.
I understand that plants are living things also. But fruits and vegetables don't have nervous systems, they don't have pain receptors. And as sloan mentioned, we don't have to kill the whole plant to eat fruits and vegetables.
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Old 07-14-2007, 03:37 PM   #80
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I have killed animals for food and I will kill again.
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Old 07-14-2007, 03:39 PM   #81
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Let's discuss the plants' nervous sistem...

Please... I'm not a vegetarian but why can't you just respect who is?
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Old 07-14-2007, 03:41 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
I'm not a vegetarian nor would I ever become one, but I agree on this point.

We have huge rates of lactose intolerance in some parts of the world - generally those where populations lived alongside cows for a very long time. There has also been research suggesting that giving cow's milk to babies dramatically increases rates of juvenile diabetes.

The dairy industry has a very powerful lobby and they've managed to convince us that we need ___ servings of milk and milk products per day. Why? It is perfectly possible to get your sources of calcium from other things. Dairy products are the only things on the food pyramid that are required despite enormous numbers of people being intolerant of them. And no, the solution is not to take digestive enzymes, it's to stay away from dairy.

I am lactose intolerant and I still remember being force fed milk in school as a little kid. And then the consequences thereof. It's appalling.
Dairy consumption originated in Scandinavia probably 10,000 years ago, so you might not be surprised to know that they're the least lactose intolerant culture in the world, since they've developed an evolutionary adaptation to it.

Obviously, if someone is genuinely lactose intolerant, you obviously have to stay away from it. End of discussion. But, at least in some people, I think it's partly as a result of what we've done to dairy in the manufacturing process. Even drinking organic milk, I can digest that far better than the milk full of chemicals.
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Old 07-14-2007, 06:29 PM   #83
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i'm of scando descent, love cheese and yogurt, but dislike milk and don't really drink it.
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Old 07-14-2007, 07:18 PM   #84
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I am of Scandinavian descent as well, and was also raised on a dairy farm where I drank cow's milk fresh from the cow as a baby rather than being breastfed. Now while that definitely did not help me bond very well with mom, it did make me incredibly lactose tolerant. The taste of straight milk nearly makes me puke but I love all other dairy products and eat them heartily with no ill effects whatsoever. Still, many holistic health practitioners I respect strongly discourage dairy products in a healthy diet.

However, I should add that the dairy I consume is almost exclusively organic with no antibiotics or hormones added, the exception being when I eat in restaurants.
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Old 07-14-2007, 07:48 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama

The insults and intolerance exist on both sides. I'm a proud omnivore, but I've known many people who are proud vegetarians.
to you and Irvine

I have been on both sides of this one. I was a strict vegetarian for more than 15 years. It did not serve me well. Maybe I could have done it better, but I did the best I could at the time, took supplements, generally ate well, I was definitely not the type of vegetarian who lives on pasta. I ate a lot of vegetables and grains and tried to get enough protein. By the time I hit 40, however, I was in a health crisis and a nutritionist friend insisted I start eating meat again. Sure, I probably will never have the health problems that heavy meat eaters are prone to, but I had other problems. I lost muscle tone too early and it's been a bitch getting it back. I didn't sleep. I was always tired and moody, prone to depression, cried a lot, and all the food-combining in the world still left me seriously protein-deficient. My nails developed ridges. No amount of supplementation seemed to help.

Now 4 years after re-introducing meat into my diet, I can honestly say I'm healthier than I've ever been. I SLEEP! That was the first miracle. I have lots of energy, and rarely get colds and flu.

I still gravitate towards vegetarian food. Last night I had a spinach salad and lentils for dinner and every cell in my body was craving it and loving it. But tomorrow I may have a burger (using organic meat). I try to keep it all in balance. If I'd just cut back on meat, instead of being a vegetarian, I believe I would have fared better overall.

I'll repeat something I've said a few times when this subject has come up, which is that my friend the nutritionist said he's never seen a truly healthy long-term vegetarian over the age of 40. Everything's fine for a long time, and then what happened to me is a very typical scenario he sees in his practice all the time.

I do have a hard time eating with some vegetarians today because the ones I know seem to have so many food and interpersonal issues. Everything has to revolve around what works for them. High maintenance, in other words. I had a little bit of that going on myself, though not extreme, and it is so liberating when deciding where to eat with friends and knowing that it doesn't have to revolve around my diet, and when looking at a menu the whole thing is available to me, which given how much I travel and eat in restaurants, means a lot. My friends say the new meat-eating me is just more pleasant to be with all around.

For what it's worth.
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Old 07-14-2007, 09:52 PM   #86
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Originally posted by Infinitum98


I understand that plants are living things also. But fruits and vegetables don't have nervous systems, they don't have pain receptors. And as sloan mentioned, we don't have to kill the whole plant to eat fruits and vegetables.
Mimosa plant, ever seen one before?

Plants don't have mouth so they couldn't moan or talk, they don't have eyes filled with tears, but it doesn't mean they can't feel anything.

Quote:
Originally posted by Sloane Peterson


So you don't eat vegetables or animals or fruits? Concerning plants...at least fruits come off of trees and do not have to kill the entire plant to eat them. Vegetables are similar. Animals eat plants as well...but animals don't eat humans. Insects, birds, animals, and humans all eat plants. But, not all species eat animals.

I understand what you are saying, but are you just trying to defend being a meat eater?

Oh, really? So if you have to kill the whole plant, you don't eat, right?

So you definitely don't eat carrot, onion, garlic, cabbage, lettuce, potato, celery, beetroot....etc, etc

Could you please tell me, what do you eat?

Yes, not all species eat animals; but not all species are live on vegetable only either.

To live is to kill, only because we kill, so we can live.

If there was a tiger right in front of you, and you have a gun in your hand. Will you pull the trigger to save your own life, or you take off your cloth so the tiger could have its dinner served right? Yes, there is a third option that you could try to convert the tiger to be a vegetarian.
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:52 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sloane Peterson


I am not completely vegan, but I have read that humans are the only animal that drinks another animal's milk that is usually reserved for that animal's offspring. It's odd to think that we drink the milk that is naturally produced within the body for the offspring of that animal.

Meat contains nothing that the human body cannot obtain from a vegetarian diet.

Hmm, I also read humans are the only animal that produce tools to hunt animals that actually sit on top of the food chain too. The question is do the other animals have the brain power to break through the position in the food chain? I'm sure they would, if they ever have a chance.

My friend's cat loves milk. The two year old cat takes milk every day. Another friend have to sometimes treats her rabbit with dried meat, because this rabbit refuse to eat carrot.

Just take a look at your teeth in the mirror, the start point of your digestive system. Human teeth clearly showed that we could not gain enough nutrition from full vegetable diet either. We are the species that will have to live on both vegetable and animal products.

Take giant panda as an example. We all know that this animal eat bamboo. But Giant Panda is a typical example of meat eating animal turned vegetarian species. By changing its diet, and moving its home to the foot of deep moutain, this species survived from the ice age. As a result of changing diet, the life of this species are shorted quite a lot. After millions of years, this species digestive system still not fully compatible to the bamboo diet and couldn't gain enough nutrition from the food. Even this species has spend more than 10 hours a day just sit there and eat. but in natural condition, old panda usually sitting there die while still trying to eat more, due to the lack of nutrition. The simple fact is the teeth of the giant panda is still have the teeth of a bear not a teeth of a rabbit or sheep. So does it digestive system, still more a meat eating species.

So in the zoo, just to help them live longer and happier, the keepers will put cooked grain and milk into the Panda's daily diet. As a result, in the wild, the panda could live about 25 years max, but in the zoo, they always lives longer than that, the longest record is 37 years.

My mother has to stay away from vegetable protein, because she has kidney problems, and vegetable protein gives kidney more pressure than protein from animal products, due to the fact that most of them could not be used to build human body.

To save my own life in future, I carefully calculate the percentage of animal protein and vegetable protein I take every day.

I just don't want to die young.
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Old 07-15-2007, 01:26 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by butter7


Mimosa plant, ever seen one before?

Plants don't have mouth so they couldn't moan or talk, they don't have eyes filled with tears, but it doesn't mean they can't feel anything.




Oh, really? So if you have to kill the whole plant, you don't eat, right?

So you definitely don't eat carrot, onion, garlic, cabbage, lettuce, potato, celery, beetroot....etc, etc

Could you please tell me, what do you eat?

Yes, not all species eat animals; but not all species are live on vegetable only either.

To live is to kill, only because we kill, so we can live.

If there was a tiger right in front of you, and you have a gun in your hand. Will you pull the trigger to save your own life, or you take off your cloth so the tiger could have its dinner served right? Yes, there is a third option that you could try to convert the tiger to be a vegetarian.
Being questioned about my beliefs is not something I have to respond to at all, because I could sit here and say I eat red meat on Tuesdays and fish on Wednesdays and artichoke hearts on Fridays and it would be true and right because if you believe something sincerely, who is someone else to tell you it's wrong or stupid or pointless.

I eat dairy products but not animal meat because I have a PERSONAL problem against it. I continue to hang out with my friends (all, except 2 who eat meat regularly). We go to eat and they all order meat and I do not start an argument telling them why I don't agree with what they eat. We respect each other because that's how I believe civil relationships are. Also, I never said plants do not have "feelings". It's a question of morality and personal belief whether or not anything (even humans) have credible feelings.

When I talked about vegetables, I was just defending what I thought was an attack towards me or other well-meaning vegetarians.

I do not bother others to try to find food for me to eat. If I go someplace, I can always just order a side and be as happy as ordering an entree. If I am doing a special dinner, I always make sure they have something available for me before I go. I wouldn't go out of my way to make a scene in order to publicize the fact that I am vegetarian.

I don't know if I will be vegetarian my whole life. To me, this is a part of my life that is a personal journey. It's a learning experience and it's allowing me to broaden my horizens. It lets me choose options I wouldn't have otherwise...I don't eat fast food as often, because there simply isn't a lot to choose from that isn't meat. It also lets me be more conscious of food I am putting into my body, whether it is made with meat or meat derivatives... but also other nutrition facts that I would not have otherwise noted.

But the thing about the tiger..that's really not something I want to answer, because it's irrelevant. I am not talking about self-defense. I am talking about taking animals and farming them in order to kill them. Of course in self defense all matters change. Given the chance to free himself from a butcher, I'm sure any wild animal would fight for his life, but animals born and raised in captivity have no other option but to live and be fed...not knowing they will later die.

When people give hypothetical situations like "Would you kill an animal if..." it puts me in a bad mood because I want to say "If you could talk to that cow... or empathize with him... know exactly how it is to be that cow (not a human changing into a cow, but to be born a cow) would you have the nerve to kill him?"

Maybe you would...and maybe that's your personal choice. Maybe I just find it hard to imagine myself as being better than a cow simply because I don't understand how it is to be a cow. It's like saying "well, I don't speak Russian, so all Russians must be stupid," That's very wrong and so is saying cows are lesser beings because they do not fit into the model of what "reasoning, thinking individuals are...as defined by humans"


Of course I am not perfect and I don't know all the facts about why vegetarianism is flawed and why eating meat is flawed and why humans are omnivores and how we have evolved, blah blah blah. What I know is that personal choice is one hell of a great thing.
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Old 07-15-2007, 02:33 AM   #89
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I don't have problem with what people choose to eat. It is true that some animal been treated badly in the farms, I hate to see that too. However, the reason that someone has stated here doesn't make sense to me at all.

Could stop eating meat be a positive solution for the whole animal welfare issue? If people really against these cruel behaviour, why don't they save the effort, and push the store and farm to do the right thing?

When a vegetarian was trying promote animal welfare to the farms, would the owner listen? Vegetarians are not even their customer, why should they listen to them? If someone really wanted to do something good, why did they made themselves powerless at the first place?

Don't know what is the biggest supermarket in your city, but just imagine if this supermarket decide that only free-ranged poultry products are acceptable because customers won't buy the caged ones, how this going to impact on the farms? I bet 80% of the poultry supplyeres of the supermarket could have start to change their business in less than 3 months.
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Old 07-15-2007, 03:09 AM   #90
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If people didn't eat meat in the first place, there would be no discussion of ethical farming.

How can not eating meat be apathetic to animals...or a negative solution for animal welfare?

Don't think I am naive enough to think the entire world will go completely vegetarian...but certainly then the whole issue would be irrelevant.

Why would I push the farm if I wasn't in agreement of eating animals in the first place?

What happened to the entire theme of my post, which was "personal choice" and "freedom of decision"? I definitely would not attack someone else's legitimate decision to eat meat...or else I would be attacking a lot of my loved ones.
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