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Old 02-06-2004, 07:04 PM   #31
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Until I entered the building and rained on both of your parades.

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It's ok, I had my umbrella up.
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Old 02-06-2004, 07:58 PM   #32
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Many of the posts describing polygamy as a "cultural" thing that makes Westerners upset admit that the women are either coerced, outright forced into it, viewed as property, or married to aid in the farm work.

THAT'S what makes this Westerner upset. If polygamous marriages are truly consensual and equal, then fine. When that starts to happen, polygamy will fade away.
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Old 02-06-2004, 08:25 PM   #33
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Is the guiding principle: we can ban things as long as we treat those who are gay and straight equally?

I am not sure that this holds water......

Polygamy...if I am not mistaken is a choice....unless you fit the examples that Martha (Welcome Back Girl) mentioned.

Can we agree that homosexuality is NOT a choice? If it is not a choice, as the color of ones skin is not a choice, shouldn't equality be afforded to people?

This is why I am still believing in a defined amendment of what marriage is.....however.....my amendment would specifically outline that marriage is between TWO concenting adults.


If we go back to your guiding principle....what other choices or kinds of marriage do you envision?
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Old 02-06-2004, 08:30 PM   #34
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Originally posted by martha

THAT'S what makes this Westerner upset. If polygamous marriages are truly consensual and equal, then fine. When that starts to happen, polygamy will fade away.
I think when we look at this...and maybe this is from my Western prospective.....

if there is more than one wife/husband...how is property treated, how are social security benefits treated, what about pensions.

If the husband dies....where do the wives go? Do they sell everything and divide it evenly.....I am not sure that our system of law is capable of this situation.

I do believe that it is a much different argument and jump from polygamy to marriage of gay/lesbians.

I just realized something.....since I am a minister in the Universal Church of Life.......I can perform Marriages in Massachusetts......

Hmmmm.........
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Old 02-06-2004, 08:44 PM   #35
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Originally posted by martha

[i]If polygamous marriages are truly consensual and equal, then fine. When that starts to happen, polygamy will fade away.
I respectfully disagree. Im not sure what your basis is for this statement. That one individual only has the capacity to love one other individual? If this is what you meant (and Im not sure that it is) then I disagree. The human capacity for love is limitless. I fell in love with a gorgeous man - my husband. Years later we produced a gorgeous daughter who I love equally as much as my husband. When my next child arrives I will love that child as much as my other child and my husband - no favourites. Im trying hard not to sound too much like a hippy but I honestly believe that if a person was really into any sort of consenting multiperson marriage then the capacity to love all the other people in the marriage would also be easily achievable.

If that is not your intended implication of your statement above, my sincere apologies. If so, what did you mean, please?
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Old 02-06-2004, 08:55 PM   #36
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How are polygamous marriages=to loving your children and husband?

I'm confused now
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Old 02-06-2004, 09:02 PM   #37
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I just meant loving more than one person is achievable. Did that make sense? Im a bit tired this morning.
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Old 02-06-2004, 09:07 PM   #38
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I was trying to interpret Marthas statement. Im a bit bamboozled by it. Either I have gotten the wrong end of the stick (which is probable) or what shes stating is so foreign to me I dont understand it. (also likely)
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Old 02-06-2004, 09:38 PM   #39
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Originally posted by melon

Give me a break. A preposterous statement by another angry straight male.

I'm gay. I haven't made it a secret here, but I also don't feel that I have to make my life an after-school special and announce it to the world here every time I enter the forum. So let me tell you, since I probably know more gay people than you would ever care to know: it's not a choice. When you are young and you enter puberty, I'm guessing that you knew you liked girls. You didn't wake up one day and say, "Shall I like boys or girls today?" Gay people grow up the same way. As they grow older, they realize that they are sexually attracted to people of the same sex, and, most of the time, they don't have a word for what they feel. Most of the time, it takes years to discover a word for what they feel: homosexuality.
thank you again for your normal assumptions on what someone who "leans to the right" thinks and believes. they always bring joy to my day. angry straight male... as opposed to angry gay male? let's get one thing clear here... i do not care about anyone's sexuality. if you're gay? fine... if your'e straight? fine... if you bang the borro's? fine. my uncle is gay. he's also a great man. the fact that he's gay didn't matter to me as a kid who had no clue what gay was, and it doesn't matter to me now, and it never will matter to me. my best friend is jewish, i've dated an african-american, my uncle is gay, i am pro-gun control, pro gay marriage, i only attend church for weddings and funerals, and i'm a friggin' republican. go f'ing figure. i made those statements not because of what party i claim to be my own. i made those statements not because i'm gay, straight, bi, or donkey. i made them because it's what i believe. seems to me that i've never actually declared my sexuality in this forum... because it doesn't matter. you just happened to assume that because i tend to argue what are considered "republican" issues, that i'm some top 1% church going conservative. now please let me quote myself...

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i think you're born with your sexuality, and the rest is just sexual confusion and experimentation
gee... seems like i'm agreeing with you there, doesn't it? wowzers... how preposterous a statement. now let's take a step back to reality and have a nice civil debate without slapping labels on people that you don't know 1 friggin thing about.
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Old 02-06-2004, 10:52 PM   #40
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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
thank you again for your normal assumptions on what someone who "leans to the right" thinks and believes.
I don't know who you are at all. You could be Janet fucking Jackson for all I know. All I have to go on is by your words, and when you start talking about being gay as "choices" and fucking "burros," then what the hell am I supposed to think? If you want people to react to you more objectively, then maybe you'll figure out how to say it in a manner that isn't the most repugnant manner ever. You knew what you were doing; I have never believed you to be dumb.

Now, on the basis of what you wrote here, I understand where you are coming from more. Write like this more in the future, and you'll get a more rational answer out of me. But, I guess, that would be less fun, eh?

Melon
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Old 02-06-2004, 11:02 PM   #41
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Hey, hey, hey, everyone back in their corners, please. Its okay. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. And everyone is entitled to be treated with respect. If someone doesnt treat you respectfully then just wish them well and mentally write them off as a dickhead.
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Old 02-06-2004, 11:03 PM   #42
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I just meant loving more than one person is achievable. Did that make sense? Im a bit tired this morning.
got it!
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Old 02-07-2004, 09:01 AM   #43
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Originally posted by martha

Polygamy is about male hegemony (damn I love that word) and women as property. My point was that if polygamous marriages ever truly become marriages of equals, men won't participate with such eagerness.
Note, for example, that in *most* (perhaps not all, but certainly most) cultures that practice polygyny, there exist elements of patriarchy more prevalently than in North American and Western European cultures (which is pretty much what we're talking about here). I also note that most pro-polygamy spokespersons I've seen and read about are men, and most activists against polygamy are women.

This is to say nothing of polyandry, of course, but when compared with polygyny, it's incredibly rare. If we lived in a truly equal society, rid of all elements of patriarchy, I could support polygamy as "one way to get things done," I guess. But the fact that too many people in this society still consider men to be the de facto, default heads of their respective households leads me to have a bad feeling about polygamy. In Western societies, polygyny rather than polyandry is the norm when polygamy happens. I've read too many horror stories of how women suffer in polygynous arrangements to be totally comfortable with it.
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Old 02-07-2004, 09:04 AM   #44
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A website by and for women against polygamy:

http://www.polygamy.org/
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Old 02-07-2004, 11:02 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


Polygamy isn't about love. Go back and reread my posts when you are less tired.

Polygamy is about male hegemony (damn I love that word) and women as property. My point was that if polygamous marriages ever truly become marriages of equals, men won't participate with such eagerness.
I think you've got a valid point Martha. Liberal Moslems *hate* polygamy for this reason. In the "Princess Trilogy" Sultana was furious when her husband wanted to take a second wife, left him, and talked about a divorce. Her husband eventually agreed not to take another wife, so they didn't get divorced. When they made polygamy illegal in Turkey, the law was promoted as being protective of women's rights. It's a complicated issue.
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