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Old 04-16-2003, 10:36 PM   #1
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Palestine/Israel

What's your peace solution here?

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Old 04-16-2003, 10:48 PM   #2
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Israel must pull out of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip completely (1/3 of it is occupied by Jewish settlements) and Palestine must eliminate its known terrorist organizations.

If Syria is actually sincere, an elimination of WMDs from all of the Middle East would work as well, along with a formal recognition of Israel by its Middle East neighbors.

The problem stems from bigotry and perceived double standards, which, unfortunately, might not be far off.

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Old 04-16-2003, 11:36 PM   #3
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Mark,

what's your plan?
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Old 04-17-2003, 12:46 PM   #4
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I think Israel must withdraw from the territories it is occupying, as it has been required to do by numerous UN resolutions. I also believe Israel needs to reconsider its actions in the occupied territories as violence and destruction caused by the IDF is one of the contributing factors to Palestinian's resorting to suicide bombing.

I think there should be an independent Palestinian state, which is able to exercise meaningful control over its territory, ie a solution which give the Palestinian's control over small areas of land, seperated by roads controlled by the Israeli state is not a viable Palestinian state. Also, the Palestinian leadership need to do whatever is in their power to end suicide attacks against Israel.

(And please don't read anything into the fact that I discussed Israel's obligations before the obligations of the Palestinians, it was just my train of thought, not meant to imply that either the Israelis or the Palestinians or more to blame or less to blame than the other.)
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Old 04-17-2003, 01:43 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus
Israel must pull out of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip completely (1/3 of it is occupied by Jewish settlements) and Palestine must eliminate its known terrorist organizations.

If Syria is actually sincere, an elimination of WMDs from all of the Middle East would work as well, along with a formal recognition of Israel by its Middle East neighbors.

Ormus
I agree with you Ormus... I do however feel that all WMD's, including those in Israel must be detroyed. Israel by the way has over 300 Nuclear weapons, funded of course by the United States.
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Old 04-19-2003, 10:57 PM   #6
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"Israel by the way has over 300 Nuclear weapons"

Not surprising at all considering how much blood and treasure the Arab nations have given over the past 50 years trying to top the Nazi's in killing Jews.

The UN had the perfect peace plan back in 1948 and the Arabs rejected it and have spent half a century trying to destroy an independent country.
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Old 04-19-2003, 11:11 PM   #7
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"Israel by the way has over 300 Nuclear weapons"

Not surprising at all considering how much blood and treasure the Arab nations have given over the past 50 years trying to top the Nazi's in killing Jews.

.
The way I see it, the Jews, with the support of Britain and the United States invaded arab land and through the continuous murder and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, have now called it a "homeland". The Palestinians and arabs were robbed of their homeland and murdered on a daily basis by Israeli armed forces who continually destroy their homes. 50 years of injustice and ethnic cleansing. The Palestinians had a rich culture, dating back to the Canaanites in 3000 B.C. ... Before the Hebrews arrived to that land in 1500 B.C. So the biblical rhetoric really has no basis.

If any jews died, it was a fight back against the inhumane injustice the Palestinians have endured. It in no way should be compared to the deaths of innocent jews at the hands of the Nazi's... In the Nazi scenerio, the jews were the oppressed... However, today, in Palestine/Israel, they are blatent oppressors.
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Old 04-21-2003, 02:32 AM   #8
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Man Inside the Child,

I'd like to remind you that there are interference members who are Jewish and live in Israel and certainly feel oppressed when they have to worry about being killed in the local bar while listening to U2 because some brainwashed person with a bomb thinks the solution to his problems is being a suicide bomber and killing innocent teens will help achieve some sort of goal.

Palestinians did not become a distinct entity until the 20th century. The Jews living in the area of Israel/Palestine upon the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1917 had every right to form an independent state as the Muslims did. There was plenty of disagreement and discord in 30 years from that point until the UN peace plan and partition. But the UN plan was a fair agreement in 1948 and Israel accepted this agreement. The Arabs rejected it and chose war. 5 Arab nations attacked Israel in 1948 when it declared its independence and the acceptence of the UN plan which was actually weighted in the Arabs favor.

Following the peace plan, who attacked who? The Arabs attacked Israel so your idea of murder and ethnic cleansing is not one that fits the description of Israel but of the Arab nations that rejected peace and chose to launch a war to murder all the Jews in the area. More wars would follow in 1956, 1967, and 1973, all the fault of the Arab nations. For nearly 50 years, nearly all Arab nations have refused to recognize Israel and been dedicated at one time or another to its destruction. If this destruction had successfully taken place, which was the Arab goal, the Jewish loss of life could have been or would be nearly as much as that from World War II.

Israel is surrounded by Arab countries and has had to fight 4 wars to prevent it from being wiped from the face of the earth. The terrorism that we saw on 911, is something that Israel experiences on a smaller scale every day.

All this could have been prevented if the Arabs in 1948 had accepted the UN peace plan which would have given them 3 times as much land as any peace plan today. Instead they chose war and most of their suffering is self inflicted. The Arabs chose war in 1948, and over the next 50 years, made things worse for themselves and the Palestinians.
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Old 04-21-2003, 09:54 AM   #9
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In 1917 only 5% of the population was Jewish... and they were living in peace with the Arabs... Clearly the Palestinians were literally robbed when Palestinian muslims and Christians accounted for the bulk of the population.

As far as suicide bombers go... You're right it is a terrible act and it must be horrifying for you not to be able to go to a bar and listen to U2. But the Palestinians suicide bombers are a product of Israeli oppression and humiliation. It is all this ­ the continuous oppression, the constant humiliation ­
which has given birth to the suicide bomber. The suicide bombers consider themselves freedom fighters fighting against the daily murder, destruction of their homes in favour of new settlements in Palestinian territory, the destruction of their stores and olive gardens.... all in favour of new settlements, therby shrinking Palestinian territory.

After 1948, Palestinians were literally robbed, displaced, forced out, ethnic cleansed, or forced to move to their new "territory".... In May 1948 the Zionists proclaimed the State of Israel as the homeland for the world's Jews. In 1947 Jews had formed less than a quarter of Palestine's population and that's with the immigration of Jews after the Holocaust. Even within the portion of Palestine allocated by the 1947 UN partition plan to the “Jewish state”, Arabs were the majority. Zionists claim that the Arabs' rejection of the partition plan means that the Palestinian Arabs have only themselves to blame for the further seizure of land by Israel between 1948 and 1949 (and, additionally in 1967). But clearly, why would the Palestinians accept such any U.N. offer to give up their land to foreign aggressors.

As far as deaths go, in this current intifada, sparked by the continuation of jewish settlements on Palestinian territory,
for every 10 Palestinians who dies, one Jew dies.... This has nothing to do with 9/11 or terrorism rhetoric.... This is a war in my eyes, a war for freedom, a war for justice, a war against oppression, a war for humanity, and a war for land the Palestinians have lived on for centuries, prior to any jewish invasions.

As far as being in a nightclub goes, and fearing a suicide bomber/freedom fighter to blow himself up, perhaps you should lobby your Israeli government to withdraw from Palestinian territory and stop the daily bloodshed, seisure, and destruction of Palestinian homes in favour of new settlements. Why should you expect to live in peace and harmony when just a few miles away, your government, along with American weapons and support continues to reppress Palestinians.... They are being killed, tortured, oppressed, humiliated, and stripped of their right to live in peace on what little remains of their land.
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Old 04-21-2003, 04:12 PM   #10
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Man Inside The Child,

Actually by 1917 over 12.5% of the population of Israel/Palestine was Jewish. Realize the total population at this time was around 700,000. There were large area's of land in which no one owned the land. With over 10,000 square miles of area, 700,000 is a rather small number. Consider today that the same area supports nearly 7 million and there are still large uninhabited area's! Also, nearly 40% of the land was owned by rich Arabs living in Egypt and Syria. Between World War I and World War II, they rightfully sold much of their land to Jewish settlers for nearly 10 times the amount a settler in the USA would pay for a similar track of land. Fighting among the Jewish and Arab population began as early as 1900.

By the way, I said other members of interference currently live in Israel, not me. Palestinians incorrectly describe counter terrorism operations as oppression and humiliation. These operations help prevent greater loss of life from terrorist acts. The terrorist decision to hide and fight in the civilian area's has resulted in many civilian deaths which are accidents. If it was the goal of the Israely army to kill Palestinian civilians, every Palestinian would have been killed 30 years ago. Israely military has the capability to this, but have not and will not. The Palestinian terrorist want to kill all the Jews in Israel/Palestine, but do not have the capability. Its easy to see from that who the real aggressor is.

I find nothing more idiotic than a suicide bomber who considers himself a "freedom fighter". How are you going to free yourself from anything by bombing Israely teens in a disco listening to U2? If suicide bombers think they have a legitmate grievence that justifies violent action, why don't they target Israely soldiers in the West Bank, instead of Jewish childern or teenagers in Tel Aviv?

As far as the Jewish settlers go, their numbers have been a bit overestimated. At the same time, they are settling on unoccupied land in the West Bank. I see nothing wrong with this as long as they are willing to become citizens of an Independent Palestinian State once that happens.

The Israely defense force only kills and destroys the homes of terrorist. In doing so, accidents do happen. If it was the Israely Defense forces desire to target innocent muslim civilians, they would have all been murdered 3 decades ago!

At the time of the partition in 1948, Jews represented 1/3 of the population in Israel/Palestine. They also made up the majority of people in the area that Israel recieved in the UN plan. When Israel declared independence, it had half the land. On it were 500,000 Jews and 350,000 Arabs.

I find it amazing that you neglect to mention Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordon's invasion of Israel in 1948! If this had not happened, and the peace plan had been accepted, the Palestinians would not be in the mess their in today.

During the military manuevers and combat that happened, Arab army's were defeated and 90% of the Arabs hat left their homes, left by choice, rather than deal with the possibility of an Israely occupation. It is true that 10% were evicted by force. But a sizeable number of Arabs remained and currently make up 15% of the population of the Israely state. Unlike Arabs in most other Arab countries, these Arabs have the right to vote!

"But clearly, why would the Palestinians accept such any U.N. offer to give up their land to foreign aggressors."

I'm afraid you don't understand the fact that the UN plan gave land to Jews that were already living on their own land! The UN plan did not push anyone out of their land. Thousands of Jews had lived in the area on a continious bases for centuries and many had rightfully emmigrated with the permission of the Ottoman Empire in late 1800s and early 1900s. Jews had also legally purchased land for sale by Arab landowners. By 1948, the land they were given on the UN partition was theirs. The Arabs rejected a fair partition of the land and chose war. If the UN plan of 1948 was wrong, why are Arabs now asking for the very thing they rejected in 1948?!?

Actually, in the current intifada, for every 2-3 Palestinians that are killed, one Jew is killed. This is because the Palestinian Terrorist hide among the Palestinian civilian population, making these civilian deaths unavoidable. Its impossible to kill and contain Palestinian terrorist hiding among a civilian population, without there being accidents in which innocent civilians are killed. The Palestinian Terrorist hide among the Palestinian terrorist because they know when the Israely's try to hunt them down, it will be difficult and they will likely accidently kill Palestinian civilians which they came falsely claim as an act of Israely oppression.

"This has nothing to do with 9/11 or terrorism rhetoric.... This is a war in my eyes, a war for freedom, a war for justice, a war against oppression, a war for humanity, and a war for land the Palestinians have lived on for centuries, prior to any jewish invasions."

Please tell me which other wars for "freedom", "Justice" "against oppression", "for Humanity", "for land" were fought by strapping a bomb to oneself and going into a disco and killing Israely teens listening to U2? How does killing Israely teens listening to U2 accomplish any type of political goal? How does it accomplish anything at all? What has Palestinian Terrorism, and Arab Invasions of the past 50 years accomplished?

Let me tell you something, unlike the rest of the Arab countries, Israel is a full democracy. The people in Israel are well educated and have voted for Israely governments that will defend them from terrorism. Defending oneself from terrorism is not an act of oppression. The Israely's have chosen their current government because they believe it is the one that is most, Just, and will provide them with the most security from terrorist that want to kill all Jews in a massacre far worse than anything that happened in World War II.

I respect the Jews and all those that support the targeted hunt for terrorist anywhere in Palestine or else where. This is not oppression of the Palestinians but rather the excercise of one's right to life and self defense from the some of the most evil and twisted people on the Earth. There is no justification for TARGETING teens in a disco with suicide bombers! How on earth does that accomplish anything!? If the person feels oppressed by Israely soldiers on the West Bank, why don't they attack Israely soldiers on the West Bank instead of teens in a disco?!?!?

It is the Jews in Israel that are surrounded by Arab countries who have failed to recognize their right to exist and have attacked and invaded them 4 times in the last 50 years in addition to all the terrorism. The acts of the suicide bombers are just as evil and unjustified as what terrorist did on 9/11.
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Old 04-22-2003, 12:33 AM   #11
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Sting,

I've done some reading and it looks like Palestine was about 9 % Jewish ond 91% Palestinian in 1917. Much of the land was Palestinian owned and very few people sold... Most were forced to flee or were killed. The idea that Palestinians simply sold there land was contrived to make Jews feel better about invading someone elses land.

As far as population goes "On it were 500,000 Jews and 350,000 Arabs." I'm not sure how accurate that information is, but you don't go from 9% to 60% overnight... There was a slow and forced "immigration" at the start of world war II and that's why the numbers swelled so high.

As far as your argument of terrorism goes, you still have to ask yourself why terrorsim exists... Terrorism and Islamic Extremism have arised from the torture, murder, and oppression of Palestinians for over 50 years.

Just one scenerio, your mom, dad, wife, son, friends daughter are all killed by an opressive power... Your people have had everything taken away from them... You have nothing, they attack you with American supplied F16's, gunships, etc... It's war... How do you fight back and gain freedom for future generations, What do you have to live for nevertheless?? I know, I'm anti-suicide bomber, but I and most others look at the scenerio from a position of freedom, they've been oppressed, they are in war.... Palestinian civilians are being tortured and murdered and that's the only way they can fight back.

Anyways, you know what, believe it or not, I agree with you, I feel that the Palestinians do need a Martin Luther King and an non-violent approach to the scenerio, unfortunately Yasser Arafat as an uneducated, embezzling, guerilla fighter with little to offer the Palestinians. I've actually said that before, that they should mimic the African-American movement and strive to gain support both domestically and internationally.

But Sharon is no better... A mass murderer (who in on one order killed 17,500 Lebanese and Palestinian dead and the Sabra and Shatila massacres) who I don't think has much intention for peace as the building of settlements has increased in his power.... That is what has spurred such retaliation from the Palestinians. That is what has spurred the suicide bombing... Suicide bombing is a sad reality in Palestine... Everything has been taken away from them and they feel as though they must give up their lives to give freedom to future generations... You may say that attacking a disco is harsh, and yes i think your right, but so is bulldozing a home with a family still inside... Such events create the suicide bomber... Do I agree with suicide bombing... No, I actually agree with your point that there should be a non violent approach. But we are looking on from a position of peace, having not lived through the oppression, aggression, and murder.

As the brilliant Edward Said, a Colombia and Berkely Professor/Intellectual suggests "Sharon government's preposterous claim that Israel is the victim, the Palestinians the aggressors in the four- decade war that the Israeli army has waged against civilians, property and institutions without mercy or discrimination. The result today is that the Palestinians are locked up in 220 ghettos controlled by the army; American-supplied Apache helicopters, Merkava tanks, and F-16s mow down people, houses, olive groves and fields on a daily basis; schools and universities as well as businesses and civil institutions are totally disrupted; hundreds of innocent civilians have been killed and tens of thousands injured (that's only in the past year); Israel's assassinations of Palestinian leaders continue; unemployment and poverty stand at about 50 per cent -- and all this while General Anthony Zinni drones on about Palestinian "violence" to the wretched Arafat, who can't even leave his office in Ramallah because he is imprisoned there by Israeli tanks, while his several tattered security forces scamper about trying to survive the destruction of their offices and barracks. "

What I find interesting is that "Israel's assassination of Palestinian leaders continue"... Perhaps the Israeli's prefer the poor and corrupt leadership of Yasser Arafat as they continually hunt down any potential leader attempting to start a freedom movement. Maybe it's in Israels best interest to keep Yasser Arafat around... a horrible leader with the image of a terrorist... There are many Palestinians that could do a far better job to gain local and international support, but really, if the Israeli's wanted him out, he would be.... they'd stage a coup and kill him... Why kill other leaders and not Arafat.... Likely, because Israel wants him there, he's done nothing for the Palestinians but hurt the....

But I'm with you though Sting, I want to see non-violent resistence, but the Israeli government must allow some sort of leadership to arise. Why not let it happen??? Why is Arafat in power, and why are Israeli's killing other leaders, several of whom are NON-Violent.


We must understand that the Palestinians and Israeli's are two communities of suffering, but at the present time, one has tremendous power. The other is a victim of this former victim. But on a positive note... all human conflict is created by humans and it can be solved by humans."

I'm with you Sting, the violence must stop, the suicide bombing must stop... but that will only stop when Israel seizes the continued building of settlements on what little remains of Palestinian territory... Are you with me?
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Old 04-22-2003, 02:26 AM   #12
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great discusion guys!

Just a thought, U2 must be pretty popular if every teen in all the disco's are listening to them! HEHE...
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Old 04-22-2003, 09:16 PM   #13
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Sting and Headache.
Thanks for your intellegent dialogue in this friendly debate.
I learned from both of you.

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Old 04-23-2003, 12:49 AM   #14
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Man Inside The Suitcase,

"I've done some reading and it looks like Palestine was about 9 % Jewish ond 91% Palestinian in 1917. Much of the land was Palestinian owned and very few people sold... Most were forced to flee or were killed. The idea that Palestinians simply sold there land was contrived to make Jews feel better about invading someone elses land."

This is false and rather a creation by the Palestinians. Much of the land in Israel/Palestine at the time was Government land, the Government here being the Ottoman Empire, or land owned by people in modern day Egypt and Syria, all part of the Ottoman Empire at the time. The population was only about 10% of what it is today and most people living there were not wealthy and only owned a small portion of the land. The result is that there was lots of empty land to settle on or buy from people that owned it, but were not living in the area. The land records and records of purchase prove the point.

Oh and by the way, from 1917 to 1948, Arabs from other countries accounted for 40% of the immigration into Israel/Palestine. That fact basically turns any idea that the Arabs were murdered or forced to flee during that time period to rubbish. The British who policed the area at the time actually blocked Jewish immigration into the area, but never put restrictions on Arabs from other countries.

The Israely military does not target innocent civilians in the West Bank and Gaza! But accidents do happen when they rightfully go after terrorist hiding in populated area's. Israel has every right to defend itself. One can never justify the targeting of innocent civilians in terrorist attacks under any circumstances. Thats just insane. The people their trying to kill in these attacks have nothing to do with their alleged problems.

To go blow up someone you don't know and has nothing to do with your problem because and Israely soldier is patroling an area, not to far from your house looking for terrorist, is insanity. If there is a justification for fighting because the Israely military is temporarily occupying the West Bank and Gaza, then at least fight the military that is occupying the West Bank and Gaza instead of going into crowded area's of Israel to murder Women in Children. There is no logic to Palestinian terror tactics. That make no sense and do not achieve any sort of goal except the murder of women and childern.

"But Sharon is no better... A mass murderer (who in on one order killed 17,500 Lebanese and Palestinian dead and the Sabra and Shatila massacres) who I don't think has much intention for peace as the building of settlements has increased in his power"

Sharon's government was elected by the Israely people. The massacres at Sabra and Shatila have never been conclusively linked to Sharon despite the circumstantial evidence. Clearly the Israely population was not convinced by such evidence which is why they elected him as their leader.

If Israel was really waging a war agains the Palestinian people, the Palestinian people would have all been killed 3 decades ago. So these accusations that the Israely government is waging a war against them is pure rubbish! If the Israely Defense Force wanted to, they could kill everyone in the West Bank and Gaza in days. Its obvious that is not their goal at all. The deaths that have happened are mostly unavoidable accidents do to the terrorist deciding to hide in heavily populated area's.

Israel has every right to go after Palestinian leaders that are involved in terrorism. Its their right of self defense to target people who murder innocent women and childern. There has never been a "non-violent" movement in Palestine at any point. If it was Israel objective to kill innocent people, all the Palestinians would already be dead. Israel targets TERRORIST!

Israel is NOT a former victim, it still is a victim! Your also failing to notice the Arab countries in the region and their contribution to the wars, violence and terrorism that is committed against Israel. Palestinians are victims, but they have the Arab world and terrorist among them to blaim for this, not Israel, except for Israely individuals who have committed crimes.

I agree Israel should stop settlements in the occupied area's. But Palestinians are never going to have an independent state until there is a regional negotiation of the problems and Palestinians adopt non-violent approaches to resolve their problems. Palestinians biggest threat to their security and potential statehood is not the Israely military, but the terrorist that live among them.
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Old 04-23-2003, 03:16 AM   #15
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Sting,

This argument is going nowhere... Not much of a dialectic discussion... But sorry man but I hate to repeat myself...

Please re-read my previous posts in response to this one. But I'll leave you with this:

The oprressed are now the oppressors... The oppressors created the terrorist. The terrorism will stop when the oppression stops...



Peace.

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