Palestine/Israel

[STING2]

Man Inside The Child,

As far as Sharon, its never been proven that he has actually murdered anyone. Israely citizens have heard all the stories and alleged crimes. They have looked at the facts like any citizen of a democratic nation and made a judgement based on those fact of whether Sharon is #1 a war criminal who should be locked up and #2 Whether he is fit to be the leader of Israel and if so, if he is the best leader among the candidates.

Israely citizens having study the facts have colectively concluded that there is no proof that Sharon has engaged in any war crimes. They have also decided that at this time in history he would make the best leader for Israel.

You could perhaps say I am wrong and don't know the facts, but you could not say that about over 3 million voters in Israel. Israel is a free and open society and the people of Israel have determined at this time, that Sharon is not a war criminal and is the best leader for them.

In any combat situation in which civilians are killed. One side can always make the allegation that they were murdered instead of it being an accident. If it was really the intent of the Israely Defense Force to murder Palestinians, they all would have been murdered about 3 decades ago. A military with the equipment and size of the Israel Defense Force could wipe out the entire West Bank and Gaza Strip in less than a couple of weeks. This is an indisputable fact which I don't think your recognizing.

By the way, there was NO MASSACRE AT JENIN! It is a proven fact by the United Nations that no massacre took place at Jenin. Yet your citing sources that list Jenin as a massacre which throws that sources credibility completely into doubt. Only 48 civilians out of tens of thousands of civilians were killed at Jenin. In not a single of the 48 dead civilians was it ever determined that the person was killed in nothing more than an accident. Israels tactics at Jenin saved lives. The only one who put the people there in jeopardy was the terrorist. Why did the terrorist decide to make a defensive stand in the most heavily populated part of the city? Why did they not go outside the city to fight the Israely's? I think its rather obvious.

"You call such autrosities lies by the Palestinians... I don't think that's fair.... I don't know what to say really... If you don't want to see the truth don't... I do agree Israeli teens should live in peace... I am not an advocate of suicide bombing... But as I've said before, the oppressor creates the suicide bomber... You've got a 70% poverty rate in Palestine, 50% of children are malnourished... There homes have been bombed and destroyed, they've been dispossessed of their homes and families. It is from such a culture that the suicide bomber arises... Israel's oppression, aggreesion and humiliation made the suicide bomber."

Listen, if an Israely soldier intentionally killed an innocent Palestinian, the burden of proof is on the Palestinians to prove that, that is indeed what happened. I don't think its fair to accuse someone of genocide and slaughter when they have in fact not engaged in those things. The United Nations determined that only 48 civilians were killed at Jenin. All it is believe were killed in crossfire and by accident. Do you believe in the idea of "innocent until proven guilty"? Most Israely soldiers are innocent of any crimes. But if there are those that are guilty, then they must be proven guilty and punished accordingly.

With suicide bombing, its rather obvious who is guilty. There over a Billion people in other parts of the world who live in absolute poverty! They don't have houses to live in, supermarket to go to for food. They would consider the conditions the Palestinians live under to be a paradise. Yet despite their much poorer conditions, they do not strap bombs to themselve and walk into disco's to blow up teens. The Idea that poverty causes suicide bombing is false! If it were true, the action would not be limited to the middle east.

If you were the head of the Israely Defense Force and had the responsibility of catching and killing terrorist who hide in heavily populated area's, what would you do? Or, lets take it out of the middle east. If you were the head of the police department of your local community and there were terrorist blowing up your supermarkets and pubs, what actions as a police officer would you take to defend your community from those that are trying to kill everyone in your community?

It is important to realize that "oppression" of the Palestinian people does not necessarily come from Israel. It really comes from the leaders and culture of Palestinians that have rejected every peace deal they have been offered over the past 55 years and who still feel violence is the only answer to their problems. After 55 years, no non-violent movement exist in the West Bank and Gaza. Its unfortunate, but I think those that might have been supportive of a such a movement may have been murdered by other Palestinians or scared into silence by them.

When Palestinians found that two Palestinians had helped the Israely's catch terrorist, they rounded them up and beat them to death in the streets. Nope, no trial, no "innocent until proven guilty", "they helped the Israely's in some way and now were going to beat them to death in the middle of the street"! I saw them do it on TV. What type of civilized society does this to their own people? If you want to know why there has been 55 years of war and no acceptence of various peace plans, if you want to know why there continues to be widespread poverty in the West Bank and Gaza, you don't need to look further than that action.

I've read the history and attempted to analyze the whole issue from the perspective of Palestinians. I did not initially before I researched this area necessarily favor Israel, although I do have members in my family that our Jewish, if that makes me biased, then I guess I'm guilty. No one wants to be on the side of injustice and from my research into this area, Israel has been unfairly treated and is the victim of the past 50 years. There are few countries over the past 50 years that have had to survive the odds Israel has. How many countries have been invaded by 5 other countries on their first day of independence?

 

[ouizy]

04.29.03

ANOTHER DAY
















ANOTHER SUICIDE BOMBING.












EXPLAIN THIS ONE.

 

[Screaming Flower]

happy holocaust rememberance day...

 

[deep]

GW Bush got it right this time, when he said bombers do not want peace.

There are right wing extremist Israelis who do not want peace, also.

Taking property in the West Bank and Gaza and demolishing their homes, then building housing for settlers is like pouring gasoline on a fire.


There is a reason why suicide bombers are Palestinians and not Egyptians.

 

[Klaus]

ouizy:

"revenge" for the yesturday rocket strike against a Palestinensian car?

and (from NY times)

Mr. Abbas called for the collection of illegal weapons and other security measures sought by Israel, and he made public a message he had previously delivered privately to Hamas and other violent groups. He has urged these groups to join the political process, insisting that each faction cannot decide for itself what the policy should be toward Israel.

"There will be no other decision-making authority except for the Palestinian Authority," Mr. Abbas said. "On this land and for this people, there is only one authority, one law, and one democratic and national decision that applies to us all."

Hamas leaders say they reject this approach and refuse to disarm. Mr. Abbas's own faction, Fatah, is conducting internal discussions with its armed wing, Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades, Fatah leaders said.

So he dosn't get support from some of the extremists for his peace program (a few hour before the terror attack Mahmoud Abbas, denounced terrorism "by any party and in all its shapes")

So some of the violent palestinensians want mr abbas to fail because they'd loose their power if he wouldn't fail.

Klaus

 

[nbcrusader]

"revenge" for the yesturday rocket strike against a Palestinensian car?

So, in middle eastern math, a car carrying militants is equal to a group of civilians.


Nice statements by Mr. Abbas. I hope he can reign in those factions who do not want peace and live for the destruction of Israel.

 

[melon]

Abbas has a long road ahead of him, and his statements seem promising so far. Let's just hope he doesn't get assassinated.

Melon

 

[ouizy]

good point melon.

I did not know of any rocket attack, I did however know of a suicide bombing on the same day the man who is going to bring you (the Palestinians) what you want took office.

Seems a bit messed up to me.

 

[melon]

It isn't messed up, considering that no matter how good a state's security and government may be, but when you have militia organizations that act independent of the government that is all but destroyed, due to Israeli retaliatory strikes, what do you expect? This isn't going to be a quick process, and I think it is naive to expect that Abbas is going to reform a nation on "Day 1" of his job.

Israel, for its own part, has not arrested or prosecuted its own citizens who act independent of the government, and who take the law into their own hands. I saw the OFAC list that proves it.

This is going to be a long process and both sides are going to have to do their part.

Melon

 

[Klaus]

ouizy:
did you hear about the strike of the israeli army today? this night (according to palestinensian news) they went into the gaza-area and killed 14 people, many more injured.

Israel said the houses of these families were hamas-symphatisants and the soldiers just returned the fire.

In hebron they killed another 2 palestinensians and destroyed a house of a hamas leader.

anan called both actions "violation of international rights" and said that they were counterproductive to start the palestine/israel peace-proces

melon:
and.. in addition it's a bad attitude if a government starts to execute people before a fair trial

Klaus

 

[STING2]

Klaus,

If it was the objective of the Israely Defense Force to kill innocent Palestinian civilians, everyone on the West Bank and Gaza strip would have been killed 3 decades ago.

 

[Klaus]

Sting: right.
I don't think that they kill them for the fun of it, but i think they accept lots of "colateral damage"
And this is the seed for new violence, which is the seed for more brute force from isreal...
Klaus

 

[nbcrusader]

The seed for violence was planted long ago. "Collateral damage" is the fertilizer.

 

[ouizy]

Israel said the houses of these families were hamas-symphatisants and the soldiers just returned the fire.

In hebron they killed another 2 palestinensians and destroyed a house of a hamas leader.

yes, and?

 

[Klaus]

ouizy: ..nothing special, just the next round of the revenge for the revenge of the revenge...

not verry productive for the peace process and it dosn't make it easier for moderate men like Mr. Abbas

As i mentioned before, the extremists need the oponent extremists to justify their doings

Klaus

 

[deep]

Counting the cost in children's lives
Whatever the outcome of the latest Middle East peace initiative, it has come too late for the many children on both sides who have been maimed physically and mentally by the war.

Since the current upsurge in violence - the second intifada - began in 2000, 528 children have been killed.

Of those 436 were Palestinian and 92 Israeli, according to the United Nations children's agency, Unicef.

The violence in Gaza on Wednesday night - some of the worst ever seen there - has added to the list.

Among the Palestinians killed were three more children - a boy of two, and two 13-year-olds, doctors said.

Children are screaming... we are trying to calm them down, but bullets are coming from all directions
Dr Fadel Abu Hein
A prominent child psychologist, Dr Fadel Abu Hein, was contacted by reporters as his building came under fire.

"We are sitting in total darkness. Children are screaming," he said.

"We are trying to calm them down, but bullets are coming from all directions."

After daybreak, one reporter saw two boys, aged 12 and 14 being hit by Israeli fire.

One was struck in the neck, and doctors said later he was paralysed.

The deaths and the injuries are carefully monitored by Unicef and human rights organisations.

But at the same time an unwritten and much longer list is growing - the number of children traumatised and brutalised by the war.

Palestinian children, apart from suffering as a result of the violence, are also hurt by the conflict's environmental consequences, including destruction of basic infrastructure, and shortages of food and water.

Their schooling is disrupted. They play at being fighters.

UN studies of mental health in Gaza suggest most youngsters there suffer emotional problems.

These problems manifest themselves as speech disorders, bedwetting or crying, evolving into aggression as the children grow older.

Among the signs that children demonstrated are fear, regression and anxiety
Monica Awad
Unicef
"Since the outbreak of violence more than two years ago, there has been a rapid and profound decline in the quality of life for Palestinian children," said Unicef spokeswoman Monica Awad.

"This is a direct result of shelling and gunfire on their homes and schools, the violence they experience daily, the damage to property, and the sustained closures of the past year, " she told BBC News Online.

Most of Unicef's work in the region is for Palestinians, but for Israeli children too, the conflict is badly affecting their psychosocial well-being.

"Among the signs that all children demonstrated are fear, regression and anxiety," said Ms Awad.

Unicef believes that among the Palestinians, families are still generally succeeding in protecting their children and keeping them away from flashpoints.

Most of their children who have been killed have been bystanders, in their homes or on their way to and from school.

Developing empathy

In the most difficult circumstances, Unicef believes it has had some success in alleviating the suffering of Palestinian children.

Much of this has centred around summer camps, which over the last two years have benefited more than 30,000 youngsters.

Unicef says the camps allow the children to play and develop such skills as empathy, critical thinking, listening and decision making.

The UN also supports media activities, including story writing by Palestinian adolescents on the current conflict.

A book of short stories was published in which Palestinian youth detail their experience of the crisis and their hopes and aspirations.

Local non-governmental organisations and media outlets have also worked with Unicef to provide young people with an opportunity to express themselves on television, radio and in newspapers.

Unicef also claims success in innovative schemes such as a Youth Parliament, and counselling hotlines where young people provide psychosocial support to their peers.

Story from BBC NEWS:

 

[Klaus]

 

[wall]

and the cycle begins once again.

mitc

 

[STING2]

None of this would be happening if the Palestinians and Arabs had simply accepted the UN Partition Plan of 1947. Instead they brutally attacked Israel. 5 Arab countries invaded the tiny country of Israel. Perhaps when Palestinians learn what "non-violent" action is, the above events will become a thing of the pasts.

The terrorist who TARGET childern cannot be allowed to commit their violent acts. They must be captured or killed. Targeting civilians is a crime. This is what the Palestinians do. The Israely defense force, one of the most professional military forces in the world, targets Terrorist and criminals. Any Palestinian that is killed by accident is the fault of the Palestinian Terrorist who decide to hide in Palestinian Towns and Villiages, making such events more likely to happen.

 

[Klaus]

STING2:

while it's true what you say, none of this would be happening if Israel would have given back Palestine to the palestinensians after the 7 day war either..

It is a crime that Terrorists attack innocent civilians and it is also a crime that the Isreal army accepts the murder of civilists to hunt people where they think they are terrorists but they don't have the time to prove that in court anymore

...you can't justify the ugly things Israel does because of the attacks of the terrorists - that's exactly the problem why we have this circle of violence, because hardliners on the other side justify their behavious in the same manner

And of course, people who have nothing more to loose are more responsive to extremist thinking:

Klaus

 

[STING2]

Klaus,

Israel would have given back all the land from the 1967 war if the Arab countries had all recognized Israel's right to exist. Instead they attacked Israel again in 1973! If you want to know how peace can be made, look no further than Israel and Egypts peace deal in which Egypt recognized Israel's right to exist and Israel returned all the land it had taken from Egypt in the 1967, 6 day war.

"it is also a crime that the Isreal army accepts the murder of civilists to hunt people where they think they are terrorists but they don't have the time to prove that in court anymore"

This is not some civil crime but a war of terrorism that has been conducted against Israel for 55 years. Israely soldiers have every right to target terrorist. Any Palestinians civilians that are killed in the process are accidents. Its not a matter of accepting that. Its Israel's right to use military force to kill or capture terrorist that are TARGETING innnocent people. It is sick that you would compare what Israely soldiers do to the terrorist.

My friends in Iraq had every right to use military force against Iraqi soldiers during the war. They did their best to avoid civilian losses just as the Israely military does in the West Bank. But when terrorist choose to hide in densely populated area's, civilian losses become a stronger possibility. But that stronger possibility should not in any way prevent Soldiers from the legitimate pursuit of those that TARGET civilians. You can never allow terrorist to use innocent civilians to shield themselves from attack or capture.

Soldiers and policemen everywhere on the planet have the right to go into a building or city to catch or kill a terrorist that is planning to blow up innocent civilians. There is no circumstance under which doing that is a crime!

Listen to the citizens of Israel! They live and see these things all the time. Many of their Grandparents were massacered because people in Europe did not take steps to defend them. The people of Israel are intelligent and understand the situation. They have elected the government and approve of the Israely military's efforts to defend them. One cannot ingnore the fact that Israel is a democracy and the people of Israel of chosen this course of action based on what they know from living there and what is the best way given the difficult circumstances under which they live, to defend themselves.

 

[Klaus]

Yesturday even the US governemnt (not to be known as left-wing, anti israelian or as pacifists) asked the Israeli government now to defend in a adequate way!

 

[STING2]

The only thing I find fault with Israel is settlement building in the West Bank. Its really Israel's only dark point.

 

[deep]

Sting,

The settlement building in the West Bank and Gaza is why so many sympathize with the Palestinians.

If the settlers left the West Bank and Gaza and the Palestinians had control of their own affairs and all the taxes Israel has collected from them and kept in a frozen account for years, the burden would be on the Palestinians.

If suicide bombings still occurred and their government did not clamp down hard and hold responsible parties accountable I would have little sympathy for their cause.

 

[sue4u2]

ouizy: ..nothing special, just the next round of the revenge for the revenge of the revenge...

not verry productive for the peace process and it dosn't make it easier for moderate men like Mr. Abbas

As i mentioned before, the extremists need the oponent extremists to justify their doings

Klaus

So it doesn't ever end?
How long, how long must we sing/debate this song.???

 

[STING2]

Deep,

You have to realize the issue of withdrawel from the occupied territories is a regional issue rather than just one between Israel and Palestinians. From a tatical and startegic military standpoint, Israel has very serious security concerns due to its small size, vs its Arab neighbors that have a long history of invading Israel and fail to recognize its right to exist. In addition, the high ground of the West Bank, Golan Heights, and the River Jordan, are excellent defensive terrain. Regional negotiations which satisfy Israels security concerns and recognize Israels right to exist must be in place before Israel withdraws completely from the occupied territories.

Arab countries actions have had far worse effects on the Palestinians then anything Israel has done. This entire problem would not exist if the Arabs and Palestinians had simply excepted the 1947 UN Partition plan. Palestinians are currently asking for a fraction of the same plan they rejected 55 years ago.

Lets not forget that many elements of Humas will not be satisfied until all the Jews in Israel are driven into the sea. Lets also not forget that many Palestinian Terror organizations have had a working relationship with members of Al Quada in the past.

 

[Klaus]

William Burns (sent from Mr Powell) aked Israeli foreign minister Silwan Schalom that both Governemnts (Israeli and Palestinensian) should increase the humanitarian situation of the Palestinensian people to make peace possible

Mr Schalom replied that Israeli government would first neutralize the militant organisations in the Palestinensian teretories

Klaus

p.s. today Israeli Military killed a 13 year old boy who was one in a group who threw stones. 6 others were injured

 

[deep]

Sting,

I am aware of past Arab- Israelis wars. There is no serious pan-Arabian threat to Israel today. Egypt is no threat, Saudi Arabia is no threat, and Iraq is no threat.

There was a time when this was not so. Israel is massively armed with every possible weapon from machine guns, to attack helicopters with rockets, to nukes. Plus there is American support in the region now. Their heavy-handed tactics are no longer warranted.

The argument for holding territory for buffer zones is invalid. That logic suggests the Palestinians should have buffer zones in Israel proper to protect against the invading Israelis.

Lets not forget that many of the Israelis will not be satisfied until all the Palestinians are driven out of the West Bank and Gaza. Lets also not forget that there are extremists in Sharon?s government that have a working relationship with extremist settler movements.

Palestinians are currently asking for a fraction of the same plan they rejected 55 years ago. If the Israelis do not reach an accommodation here, they will have no moral standing left.

 

[Klaus]

sue4u2:
No it dosn't end:

Ha'aretz (Israeli Newspaper)

The two US envoys, Steve Hadley and Elliot Abrams, promised Sharon that he had nothing to worry about. The US will not demand that Israel withdraw under fire. In other words, the US will sit on the sidelines while Sharon and Abu Mazen trade constraints and excuses.

Yediot Aharonot - (Israeli Newspaper)

Sharon and his men are crushing any splinter of political chance, any stub of a creative idea for a peace settlement. With the effort exerted in trying to kill off the roadmap, it would have been possible to build a big bridge of hope.

BBC

Rockets fired from an Israeli helicopter have struck a car in Gaza City, killing a member of the armed wing of Islamic militant group Hamas.

Palestinian sources named the dead man as Iyad al-Bayk who was reportedly responsible for securing and hiding militants.

"One [rocket] hit the car from the front and the other from behind," witness Imad Mouhmmed told AP news agency. "There were pieces of human flesh flying into the air."

...

Responding to the attack, Hamas spokesman Abdul Aziz Rantisi warned there would be "severe reprisals".

...

Earlier on Thursday, Israeli troops killed a Palestinian near the Khan Younis refugee camp in the south of the Gaza Strip.

The man was approaching the Jewish settlement of Neve Dekalim and had ignored warnings to stop, the army said.

On Wednesday, troops shot dead a one-year-old Palestinian in Khan Younis in what they called a "very unfortunate incident".

The army said that soldiers guarding Neve Dekalim had returned fire after coming under attack from inside the camp.

Sharon Feeds Hamas whith what he is doing and Hamas gives Sharon what he needs to go on walking on his bloody path

Klaus

 

[nbcrusader]

Careful when mixing opinion pieces with news reports.....