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Old 04-23-2003, 04:55 AM   #16
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Man Inside the Suitcase,

I carefully read everything in your posts and responded accordingly. I wish you would address the problems that Arab countries have created for the Palestinians and their invasions and attacks on Israel. Did you even read my posts?

I've explained technically why some of the things you have said are not so, but you keep on coming back with "oppression, murder etc". Try to be more specific.

In addition, after the 1948 war, over 700,000 Jews in Arab countries in the middle east, were kicked out of their homes just because they were Jewish. There was no war going on at the point in any of those countries either.

If you read my posts you'll see my explanation as to why Israel is still oppressed. Terrorism is created by a lack of education and ruthless leaders in various area's of Palestinian and Arab society. It is a retarded and ineffective way for dealing with the problems the Palestinians or any other people face.

Israel's right to self defense is NOT oppression. Israel targets terrorist NOT innocent civilians. If Israel did target innocent civilians, we wouldn't be talking about the Palestinians because they would of all been killed 30 years ago.

The terrorism will stop when the Palestinians collectively as a people learn that they will never achieve their goals through terrorism. It will take realizing that Non-violent action is their only way to an independent state. All terrorism does is prevent Palestinians from ever solving any of their problems. There would be no Israely raids into towns and cities in the occupied area's if there was no terrorism.
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Old 04-23-2003, 05:03 AM   #17
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Sting: While agree to most of what you said above, i'd like to add that Israel dosn't target innocent civilians but Sharon accepts lots of colateral damage when acting against the terrorists - and this is exactly what the terrorists need to get more support in palestina.

Terrorism and Sharons agression against palestinensians will stop when both sides learn that revenge is not the answer. Hopefully citizens of both sides are intelligent enough to throw out the agressors of their party as soon as possible.

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Old 04-23-2003, 05:24 AM   #18
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Klaus,

There would not be any colateral damage if the terrorist did not hide in the heavily populated cities behind women and childern. Israel has every right to respond and defend itself. The loss of life is rather small compared to most military operations in the past in such densely populated area's.

If Sharon's government objective was aggression, the Palestinians would be killed or cleared out in days. It is a targeted campaign to kill or capture terrorist that like to kill Israely women and childern. I'm sure Israely citizens will continue to support governments that take strong measure to kill or capture terrorist and defend the country from Arab aggression that has been so common against Israel in the last 50 years. Israel is a democracy and can choose its leaders unlike most other Arabs.
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Old 04-23-2003, 05:40 AM   #19
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Sting:
You know that the world wouldn't accept a genocide against Palestinensians.
I repeat myself but: Terrorism is wrong, because of terrorism there is no easy to see difference to the civilians.
But this dosn't legitimate anyone to attack civilians with tanks just because they get one terrorist with this action.

If you accept colateral damage like this you can't be surpised that the affected civilians will really hate you and start to support the enemy of their enemy
As anyone here an overview which revenge of the revenge of the revenge of the... we are seing in tonights news?

We have to stop this circle of violence, and a powerfull Sharon is the wrong person for this on the israeli side. Let's hope the successor of Arafat is better than Arafat.

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Old 04-23-2003, 10:37 AM   #20
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sting,

Are you still preaching the Fox News/terrorism rhetoric....

Broaden your mind, don't necessarily read my post but try reading some alternative media... like the nation, the independent, etc...

I tried to have I dialectic and constructive discussion with Sting but he didn't read the part where I said that I believed and
agreed with the fact that non violence would be a better approach, especially with a Martin Luther King type leader to help them rise against the oppression.... Or when I attacked Yasser Ararat's leadership... I at least tried to have a truth finding discussion... He preferred not to attempt to find some sort of answer with me, and focus on positive solutions, but continue with his "terrorism" and "victim" rhetoric.

Oppression breads terrorism.... Dude, I'm gonna keep it brief because I know it'll go over your head... But hopefully someone else will learn something...

The only way to stop the suicide bombings is to halt the campaign of injustice against the indigenous inhabitants of Palestine. Whenever any occupation uses force and brutality and disregards the sanctity of life, such tactics will backfire against those responsible for suppressing the people. The backlash of this oppression has struck the heart of Israel.

The recent spate of suicide bombings within the state of Israel would very likely not have occurred if the Israeli government did not pursue a policy of indiscriminate killings of Palestinians civilians.

No one can say that two wrongs make a right. But those who care to judge the suicide bombers are not under siege, do not have their cities cut off from each other, are not attacked by helicopters, tanks, warships and ground-to-ground missiles. 50 years of theft and torture... From a safe distance where terror does not break out in the middle of the night or at any moment during the day... It is when we see things like this that we understand why there are suicide bombers.

What makes a suicide bomber? A few days ago, during a funeral procession in the occupied territories, Israeli forces shot at mourners who were walking to bury their dead. A 12-year-old boy was hit and killed and at least 11 others were injured. The participants of the funeral procession were not demonstrating, were not throwing stones, were minding their own sorrowful business, yet they came under attack.

Israel's oppresion breads terrorism...


Later.
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Old 04-24-2003, 03:19 AM   #21
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Man Inside The Child,

First, you don't what I use for sources or my education in this particular area so please stop with your baseless assumptions, about my mind or my thoughts on this particular issue.

If you want some good unbiased sources, I'd suggest the Economist and Foreign Affairs Journal. I've read and researched members that write for the Nation and I can tell you honestly, if and I repeat if, that is where you get most of your weekly news information from, your getting a very unbalanced view of things. Try something that is factual and objective(yes its more boring to read sometimes) rather than things that strive for political sensationalism.

Listen, I did read that you thought a Non-violent approach to solving the problem was a good idea. That does not mean I was not going to respond to postings by you that were factually incorrect.

If you want to talk about information going over someone head, why have you not once addressed the problems that Arab countries have caused for the Palestinians and their expulsion of 700,000 Jews from their countries following the 1948 war? Why haven't you addressed this once? Is it going to go over your head again?

Oppression can breed terrorism, but it is not the only thing that does. Also, the oppressor is not always the target of the terrorist. The oppressors are often among the Palestinian people. But through brainwashing and twisted manipulation of Palestinian youth, innocent teens in a disco become the target.

"The only way to stop the suicide bombings is to halt the campaign of injustice against the indigenous inhabitants of Palestine. Whenever any occupation uses force and brutality and disregards the sanctity of life, such tactics will backfire against those responsible for suppressing the people. The backlash of this oppression has struck the heart of Israel."

First, it is never an injuctice to defend oneself and to kill or capture terrorist there by preventing certain loss of life from their actions. If Israel indeed targeted civilians and used such brutal force and such little regard for human life, all of the people on the west bank and in Gaza would have been killed decades ago! The oppression you talk of is simply Israely forces going about counter terrorism operations in which Palestinian civilians are unfortunately sometimes killed in the crossfire. Thats not oppression.

Oppression is the targeted killing or torture of innocent human beings. Israel is not targeting innocent people. If they were or that was their goal, it would be easy enough for the Israely Defense force to roll out in their tanks and aircraft and destroy every house and shoot every women, man, and child in the West Bank and Gaza. It might take a couple weeks at most to complete the entire operation.

Thats not what Israel has done or plans to do ever. They do not target innocent civilians. Palestinian target innocent civilians. They target teens in a disco listening to U2. Terrorism or oppression is targeting innocent human beings for torture or murder. Israel does not target innocent human beings, Palestinian terrorist (or as you call them "freedom fighters") do.

There for, oppression is what Israely citizens have suffered from, while Palestinian civilians are primarily killed in accidents in attempts to contain this oppression. Yes, oppression does breed measures of military force from a free and democratic people like Israel. So if your oppression is based on the desire for an independent state, your best chance to achieve that goal is to stop your oppressive attacks. By stopping those attacks, you'll reduce the number of times Israel has to send in military force to root out terrorist. The less often this happens, the smaller the number of acidental Palestinian deaths there will be.

"The recent spate of suicide bombings within the state of Israel would very likely not have occurred if the Israeli government did not pursue a policy of indiscriminate killings of Palestinians civilians"

The Israely government does not pursue a policy of indiscriminate killing. With a military force of nearly 150,000 well armed with tanks, helicopters and other weapons, if are daily goal was indiscriminate killing, such a force would wipe out the entire West Bank and Gaza in a matter of days or weeks.

Israely military raids are targeted against terrorist. Yes, accidents happen. Palestinian raids are not targeted at Israely soldiers, they are targeted against Israely childern. Honestly, who is the oppressor?

"No one can say that two wrongs make a right. But those who care to judge the suicide bombers are not under siege, do not have their cities cut off from each other, are not attacked by helicopters, tanks, warships and ground-to-ground missiles. 50 years of theft and torture... From a safe distance where terror does not break out in the middle of the night or at any moment during the day... It is when we see things like this that we understand why there are suicide bombers."

If what you said was actually so, that all Palestinians are being attacked from helicopters, tanks and other weapons and there is terror every where at any moment from the Israely military, WHY DON"T SUICIDE BOMBERS ATTACK THE ISRAELY ARMY INSTEAD OF CHILDERN IN DISCO'S?

A lot of the blockades and raids by the Israely military would not be happening if the childern in Israely disco's were not being blown to pieces by suicide bombers. Israel has every right to go after terrorist that target innocent civilians. Try telling an Israely family that the Israely military should not do everything in its power to target terrorist in the West Bank and Gaza that seem to only attack their childern and families in disco's and cafe's and nothing else.

"What makes a suicide bomber? A few days ago, during a funeral procession in the occupied territories, Israeli forces shot at mourners who were walking to bury their dead. A 12-year-old boy was hit and killed and at least 11 others were injured. The participants of the funeral procession were not demonstrating, were not throwing stones, were minding their own sorrowful business, yet they came under attack."

I'm 99% sure this was an accident. An accident that would not be happening if the Palestinians had a culture of non-violence. The Israely military conducts raids into Palestinian area's to capture or kill terrorist. The target of the Israely bullets may have been a 1/4 mile away from the Funeral procession or more. When a bullet misses its target, it keeps going until a building or structure or an innocent person crosses its path.

If the Israely soldiers were actually targeting the mourners, none of them would have lived to tell about it.

Regardless, I can promise you this much, Israels Self Defense targeting of terrorist (or as you would say oppression) will not end until there is a negotiated settlement among Israel, Arab Countries, and the Palestinians plus a culture and movement of non-violence among all Palestinians.

In regards to the Israely Military actions and the Palestinian Terrorist actions, it is the Palestinian terrorist that will have to stop first. Thats the important lesson that the Palestinians have failed to learn. Until they learn this lesson, their never going to have an independent State. Targeting innocent childern in disco's is never going to give the Palestinians anything they want.

I've addressed every single paragraph and sentence from your previous posts, so please don't claim that it went over my head or that I did not read it.
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Old 04-24-2003, 05:58 AM   #22
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Let's hope this is good news:

Quote:
Arafat and Premier Break Deadlock Over Cabinet
By JAMES BENNET / NYTimes
RAMALLAH, West Bank, Thursday, April 24 ó Under intense international pressure, Yasir Arafat and the Palestinian prime minister, Mahmoud Abbas, agreed Wednesday on a compromise cabinet for the governing Palestinian Authority, breaking a 10-day stalemate that has delayed the introduction of a new Middle East peace plan.
...
Mr. Arafat scored more on style than substance. The compromise list of 24 ministers differed by only a few members from the one Mr. Abbas compiled 10 days ago, and it included some reformers he had previously left out, along with allies of Mr. Arafat he had tried to demote. Some associates of Mr. Abbas argued that he wound up looking tough, for having held on to Mr. Dahlan.
But by ostentatiously yielding to foreign demands, Mr. Arafat sharpened Mr. Abbas's image among Palestinians as the candidate of outside interests. Some reform-minded Palestinian officials said that Mr. Abbas had emerged from the fight looking so weak that they might have preferred no resolution, and Mr. Arafat naming a new prime minister instead.
....
Mr. Arafat also reminded the world, at whatever cost to Palestinian governance and hopes for peace, that he had not yet become irrelevant, as Israel declared him to be in December 2001.
...
Mr. Abbas founded the mainstream Fatah movement with Mr. Arafat but for 40 years has remained in the shadow of his friend and rival. He has almost no popular following. Palestinian analysts said he would quickly generate some enthusiasm if he achieves tangible benefits for Palestinians, like an easing of Israeli checkpoints and other restrictions.
full article at:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/24/in...agewanted=2&th
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Old 04-24-2003, 07:13 PM   #23
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Man Inside The Suitcase,

But what about the Palestinian Christians who accounted for betweeen 25-30 percent prior to 1948? They've always been around.

I don't think Palestine/Israel should be muslim, jewish, nor christian...

Nevertheless, I don't see how shooting into a crowd of mourners is accidental, let alone bulldozing a home in favour of a new settlement... It is a fact that Sharon has increased the building of new settlements rather than to cut back and try to find a resolve... The Israeli people voted in a mass murderer democratically... A war monger... A man who builds more settlements rather than find some sort of resolve... The Israeli people voted for harder measures against the Palestinians and in turn more settlements... The Israeli people want to live in peace, but that must only be possible when the building of settlements seizes and the continued crimes against humanity comes to a stop in Palestine.

Can I ask you Sting, honestly, do you think Sharon is a man of peace and a man to finally lead Palestine and Israel to a resolve. I've already said that Arafat is not...

Let's move this discussion over to Palestine/Israel sting... I don't think it's fair we're talking about it under this post.
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Old 04-24-2003, 07:38 PM   #24
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Man Inside the Suitcase,

Palestinian Christian never accounted for 25 to 30% of the population unless you go back before the Muslim invasion of the region prior to 600 AD.

But despite that, if Palestinian Christians wanted a state after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, they had every right to form one on the land they owned at the time in 1917. True, there are some that would argue for a combined State of everyone. Arabs usually make that arguement, in fact they argue for a single Arab state from Iran to Morrocco. Sorry but thats not fair to the legitmate rights of other people. Jews had every right to form a state in the area of Israel/Palestine and the United Nations approved of that right. There certainly deserves to be an Arab State and if the Christians had wanted one, a christian state. For those that did not like either of those choices, they had a right to form a state themselves as well. I'd see nothing wrong with having four different states in the area which is nearly 11,000 square miles.

But the Arab and Jews were the only ones with those desires. The two state solution in 1948 was the perfect solution to the problem but the Arabs rejected it. Now the Arabs are asking for less than what they would have recieved in 1948 deal which they rejected. Can't you see the incredible irony and contradiction?

"I don't see how shooting into a crowd of mourners is accidental"

US forces fired on one of their own tanks during the recent war. They shot down one of their fighters. These are accidents. They do happen.

I've explained how a crowd of mourners being shot could accidental. In fact similar things happen in US cities all the time.

If it was not an accident, please produce indisputable evidence that it was not. If the Israely's were really targeting the mourners, they would have killed them all. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Homes of alleged Terrorist are bulldozed. Settlements are built on unoccupied land although it might be owned in some way by Palestinians privately or through local government. I don't support Israely settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, but their numbers are not large, and I actually think its not a problem as long as the Jews are willing to become citizens of an independent Palestinian state.

If Sharon were a mass murdering war monger, all the Palestinians would be dead! Why don't you understand this. Its your mistaken opinion that he is such. 5 million well educated Israely citizens have a different opinion. Perhaps its time you took note of that.

Whats more of a crime against humanity, the accidental death of a Palestinian civilian in a raid that was TARGETING terrorist, or a terrorist who walks into a disco to TARGET and KILL teens listening to U2?

Sharon is a man of peace. If he wasn't, considering the military force he has under him, all the palestinians would be dead. I disagree with Sharon's settlements, but this disagreement about what the borders of an independent Palestine can be resolved in negotiations. The retarded and cowardly acts of Suicide bombing are not something that can be netotiated on. Those that support and participate in such action must be captured and killed like the animals they are. The USA saw what this type of action was like on 911.
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Old 04-25-2003, 02:33 AM   #25
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Dude your stats are incorrect, perhaps you should do a little research as I do and maybe your argument would have some merit:

Check this out... If you don't like this source than find any other.. but it's a fact that Palestinian Christians have been around since the begininning of Christianity... They are the descendents of both the Palestinian jews and christians...

Your comment about building settlements on empty land is ridiculously false... That's the worst comment you've made yet... It is a myth created to make jews feel better about destroying Palestinian homes and villages in favour of settlements... Since the foundation of Israel, the Israeli's have bulldozed in upwards of 500 villages. Look it up! What do you think all the American made bulldozers are for?

Check out my answer in Dread sox latest post for a further analyis on the building of settlements in the West Bank and Gaza... For now it's late, and I've gotta go.


In 1948, as a result of the creation of the State of Israel, over


714,000 Palestinian became

refugees. 7% or 50,000 of these refugees were Christians, and they made up 35% of all

Christians who lived in Palestine prior to May 15, 1948.

Since the foundation of Israel, the Israeli's have bulldozed in upwards of 500 villages...


Here's a quote from the Economist: It seems like you missed it... It's a 2001 article.

"Houses in the West Bank were removed because they were preventing a widening of existing Israeli settlements, and that at least some of the houses in East Jerusalem were marked for destruction because they lay athwart plans for yet another new ring road round the city. These roads are designed to lock Israeli settlements in an urban grid, and to sever Palestinian villages in the municipality from their West Bank hinterland. "

It is ironic that as Palestinian Christianity celebrates its anniversary of 2,000 years in Palestine and Israel, the community is on the verge of extinction. Perhaps more troublesome is the fact that little is being done by the West or the international Christian churches.

Historian Sam Hadawi estimated that over 50 percent of Jerusalemís Christians were expelled from their West Jerusalem homes, the largest single numerical decline of Christians in Palestine in history. Hadawiís study concluded that in Jerusalem a higher proportion of Palestinian Christians became refugees after 1949, a ratio of 37 percent of Christians to 17 percent of the Muslims. The higher ratio of Christians was due in part to the fact that the majority lived in the wealthier western Jerusalem districts seized by Israel during 1948-49. Further, approximately 34 percent of the lands seized by Israel were owned by Palestinian Christian churches, and they were simply taken by force with no compensation given to the previous owners.

To say that Ariel Sharon is a man of peace makes me sad. I can't believe that there are people out there who believe that an unrepentent war criminal is a man of peace.

Ariel Sharon, the Prime Minister of Israel, is currently facing possible war crime prosecutions for two massacres that occurred 20 years apart: the September 1982 massacre of Palestinian civilians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Lebanon, and the April 2002 Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) mass killings in the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank.

Sharon is, without doubt, guilty of these crimes against humanity, and others. He is also unrepentant. For him, these mass killings are merely necessary steps on the path toward his objective of a "Final Solution" to the "Palestinian problem," through the mass expulsion and/or extermination of the more than 3 million Palestinians and Arabs now living in Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights. Under various labels, Sharon and a rogues gallery of collaborators inside Israel, Britain, and the United States, are now moving toward the final phase of their "mass transfer" plans for the Palestinians and Arabs.

A man of peace???


Hospitals have been shelled and assaulted by gun fire and rockets. Ambulances have been torched. The wounded have been forced to bleed to death while ambulances and paramedics routinely denied access to them. Even pregnant women have been prevented, at gun point, from being taken to maternity homes to deliver their babies.

Mosques and churches have been profaned and desecrated by inebriated Israeli soldiers who see themselves as soldiers of David. But they are, in reality, behaving like soldiers of Goliath. Even the sacred Church of Nativity, the birth place of Jesus Christ, has not been spared; one of its portals was blown to pieces by Israeli shells. Priests and other church people, venerated by Palestinians of all shades, have been rudely shoved and kicked by arrogant soldiers of Sharon. He's a monster, who has no intention for peace as settlements continue to come up in the spot where Palestinians were killed for their homes. He's also promised never to take down such settlements, illegally built on Palestinian territory... Israel has broken several U.N. resolutions as a result of bulldozing homes in favour of new Israeli settlements.....

Get it together... Building on empty land... Just admit it when you don't have an argument. Sharon is a man of peace. Please dude.... Don't just call a murderer a man of peace... Please sting, I would have expected slightly more from you.


gotta go
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Old 04-25-2003, 06:16 PM   #26
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Man Inside The Child,

Do you read my posts at all? Why have you yet to comment once, even once, about what Arab countries have done to Israel over the past 50 years? Why have you yet to comment on the 700,000 Jews that were evicted from Arab countries after the 1948 war?

"Check this out... If you don't like this source than find any other.. but it's a fact that Palestinian Christians have been around since the begininning of Christianity... They are the descendents of both the Palestinian jews and christians..."

What the hell does this pertain to? When did I ever say that this was not so? Again, did you read my posts at all?


"Your comment about building settlements on empty land is ridiculously false... That's the worst comment you've made yet... It is a myth created to make jews feel better about destroying Palestinian homes and villages in favour of settlements... Since the foundation of Israel, the Israeli's have bulldozed in upwards of 500 villages. Look it up! What do you think all the American made bulldozers are for?"

I'll look it up, hopefully I'll be able to find a non-Palestinian source to back up your claim. Bulldozers? Most communities I know have them! By the way, its far cheaper to build a new house or a settlement on unoccupied land then to have to go through the demolition of what ever structures are there before them. There is plenty of unoccupied land in the West Bank, anyone that has seen a live report from there would know that. That does not mean I support new Israely settlements there though.

"In 1948, as a result of the creation of the State of Israel, over


714,000 Palestinian became

refugees. 7% or 50,000 of these refugees were Christians, and they made up 35% of all

Christians who lived in Palestine prior to May 15, 1948.

Since the foundation of Israel, the Israeli's have bulldozed in upwards of 500 villages... "

Well in you prior posts, you stated that Christians made up 25% to 30% of all the people living in the Area of Israel/Palestine. Thats obviously incorrect. The above statement is more likely. But again, whats your point? There would not be any refugees if the Arabs had not attacked Israel in 1948!!! The whole crises here was created by the Arabs decision not to accept the UN Peace plan in 1947/1948! Now the Arabs and the Palestinians want a deal that is less favorable then the one they were offered 50 years ago! Its obvious who made the "mistake" here.

"Here's a quote from the Economist: It seems like you missed it... It's a 2001 article.

"Houses in the West Bank were removed because they were preventing a widening of existing Israeli settlements, and that at least some of the houses in East Jerusalem were marked for destruction because they lay athwart plans for yet another new ring road round the city. These roads are designed to lock Israeli settlements in an urban grid, and to sever Palestinian villages in the municipality from their West Bank hinterland. " "

Nope, I have seen this before. This is simply Israel getting the area of the West Bank ready that they are going to get from any peace deal. Israel is going to get at least 5% of the West Bank in any Peace deal. The sooner the Palestinians realize this, the sooner there will be peace.

"It is ironic that as Palestinian Christianity celebrates its anniversary of 2,000 years in Palestine and Israel, the community is on the verge of extinction. Perhaps more troublesome is the fact that little is being done by the West or the international Christian churches."

"Historian Sam Hadawi estimated that over 50 percent of Jerusalemís Christians were expelled from their West Jerusalem homes, the largest single numerical decline of Christians in Palestine in history. Hadawiís study concluded that in Jerusalem a higher proportion of Palestinian Christians became refugees after 1949, a ratio of 37 percent of Christians to 17 percent of the Muslims. The higher ratio of Christians was due in part to the fact that the majority lived in the wealthier western Jerusalem districts seized by Israel during 1948-49. Further, approximately 34 percent of the lands seized by Israel were owned by Palestinian Christian churches, and they were simply taken by force with no compensation given to the previous owners."

I certainly agree that these Christians should be compensated just as the 700,000 Jews who were pushed out of their homes in other Arab countries after the 1948 war should be compensated as well. Do is it not bother you in any way what Arabs did to Jews after they lost the 1948 war. These Jews were living hundreds or thousands of miles away from Israel and yet they were pushed out of the countries they were living in simply because of the crises and war was lost by the Arabs against Israel! I'm still waiting for you comment on this and other Arab countries attacks on Israel at least once!



"To say that Ariel Sharon is a man of peace makes me sad. I can't believe that there are people out there who believe that an unrepentent war criminal is a man of peace."

"Ariel Sharon, the Prime Minister of Israel, is currently facing possible war crime prosecutions for two massacres that occurred 20 years apart: the September 1982 massacre of Palestinian civilians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Lebanon, and the April 2002 Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) mass killings in the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank."

"Sharon is, without doubt, guilty of these crimes against humanity, and others. He is also unrepentant. For him, these mass killings are merely necessary steps on the path toward his objective of a "Final Solution" to the "Palestinian problem," through the mass expulsion and/or extermination of the more than 3 million Palestinians and Arabs now living in Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights. Under various labels, Sharon and a rogues gallery of collaborators inside Israel, Britain, and the United States, are now moving toward the final phase of their "mass transfer" plans for the Palestinians and Arabs."

Most of the 5 million Israely's that voted for Sharon do believe he is not a war monger or guilty of the crimes you alleged that he is. Remember, there are millions of Israely's who are well educated and aware of the facts and they have chosen him as their leader. Perhaps its time you took your blinders off and examined why these intelligent, well educated, free thinking people have chosen Sharon as their leader.

Indisputible evidence has not been found yet to link Sharon to the massacres. There is only circumstantial and unproven evidence. Certainly, if Sharon or anyone were to be found guilty of such massacres, they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I'm surprised by the rush to judgement from a law student.

I'll say this again as I have said it before. Listen! If Israel did have a "final Solution" plan, they would have completed it over 3 decades ago. It would only take the Israely military a few days or weeks, to kill or drive out all 3 million Palestinians on the West Bank and Gaza! WHEN are you going to at least respond or acknowledge this fact?



"Hospitals have been shelled and assaulted by gun fire and rockets. Ambulances have been torched. The wounded have been forced to bleed to death while ambulances and paramedics routinely denied access to them. Even pregnant women have been prevented, at gun point, from being taken to maternity homes to deliver their babies."

"Mosques and churches have been profaned and desecrated by inebriated Israeli soldiers who see themselves as soldiers of David. But they are, in reality, behaving like soldiers of Goliath. Even the sacred Church of Nativity, the birth place of Jesus Christ, has not been spared; one of its portals was blown to pieces by Israeli shells. Priests and other church people, venerated by Palestinians of all shades, have been rudely shoved and kicked by arrogant soldiers of Sharon. He's a monster, who has no intention for peace as settlements continue to come up in the spot where Palestinians were killed for their homes. He's also promised never to take down such settlements, illegally built on Palestinian territory... Israel has broken several U.N. resolutions as a result of bulldozing homes in favour of new Israeli settlements....."

"When combat occurs in Urban environments it is impossible to prevent civilian losses completely. Nearly all civilian losses on the West Bank are accidents. The burden of proof is on you to prove that any single incident is not an accident but intentional. Most scientist in forinsics can tell an obvious accident from a targeted killing. This was done in the Jenin raid last year. It was determine that only 48 civilians were killed instead of the 7,000 that the Palestinians claimed. All of the 48 civilians were killed as a result of accidents and mistakes."

If and when Israely soldiers mistreat Palestinians as you mentioned above they should be punished. But often these alleged crimes are simply lies coming from Palestinians. The truth in many of these situations is difficult to determine.

The truth in the murder of teens in disco's by suicide bombers is not difficult to determine at all. Suicide bombers target innocent civilians. The Israely Defense Force Targets terrorist. I would think as a law student, you would be able to understand the difference.

I look forward to your response and hope you at least read my posts and respond to some of my unanswered questions, as I have done for you.
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Old 04-25-2003, 06:45 PM   #27
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"Your comment about building settlements on empty land is ridiculously false... That's the worst comment you've made yet... It is a myth created to make jews feel better about destroying Palestinian homes and villages in favour of settlements... Since the foundation of Israel, the Israeli's have bulldozed in upwards of 500 villages. Look it up! What do you think all the American made bulldozers are for?"

MIAC is correct. Most Israeli settlement were built on the site of bulldozed homes or on valuable farmland owned by Palestinian people.

You should watch this documentary for an unbiased view of the conflict. It has many Israeli people on it also, even families of people killed by suicide bomberss.

'PALESTINE IS STILL THE ISSUE' BROADCAST AROUND THE WORLD

John Pilger's film, Palestine Is Still The Issue, is being broadcast in countries around the world, including Britain, Europe, the United States, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and across the Middle East.

The film sees Pilger return to the Middle East, twenty-five years after first reporting from the region, to ask why Palestinians are still refugees in their own land.

Click here for more about the film.

To purchase a copy of the film email clip_sales@carltontv.co.u k.
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Old 04-25-2003, 07:06 PM   #28
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Scarletwine,

"Most Israeli settlement were built on the site of bulldozed homes or on valuable farmland owned by Palestinian people." Because this film which you claim is unbiased says so? The premise of the film is already biased. "ask why Palestinians are still refugees in their own land." Already from that subject line, it has already casts the Palestinians as the victim and not the Israely's. So they interview Israely's and victims of suicide bombers? Yes you might find a diversity of views among such people, but I already know which people they selectively decided to talk to and what their views were without having watched the film.
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Old 04-25-2003, 10:39 PM   #29
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I missed your reply to this earlier...


Ok, I was wrong about the 25-30 percent Palestinians... I was told otherwise and perhaps misunderstood a professor.


My sources are not Palestinian but my sources come from journalists who are not working for zionist entities. Many of the articles i read are written by jews in fact who desperately want the Israeli government to end their brutal occupation and bring peace to the region.

STING2: "Your comment about building settlements on empty land is ridiculously false... That's the worst comment you've made yet... It is a myth created to make jews feel better about destroying Palestinian homes and villages in favour of settlements... Since the foundation of Israel, the Israeli's have bulldozed in upwards of 500 villages. Look it up! What do you think all the American made bulldozers are for?"

I'll look it up, hopefully I'll be able to find a non-Palestinian source to back up your claim. Bulldozers? Most communities I know have them! By the way, its far cheaper to build a new house or a settlement on unoccupied land then to have to go through the demolition of what ever structures are there before them. There is plenty of unoccupied land in the West Bank, anyone that has seen a live report from there would know that. That does not mean I support new Israely settlements there though. "



My sources are not Palestinian but my sources come from journalists who are not working for zionist entities. Neverthless I'm happy to hear that you do not support the building of new settlements on Palestinian territory, that's a start, that's cool... I'd go one step further and remove all settlements on Palestinian territory as well. If you want I can look several articles up for you, just let me know.


STING on the Economist article: Nope, I have seen this before. This is simply Israel getting the area of the West Bank ready that they are going to get from any peace deal. Israel is going to get at least 5% of the West Bank in any Peace deal. The sooner the Palestinians realize this, the sooner there will be peace.


Perhaps the houses should be "removed" when the "peace deal" is actually complete... The people who lived in those bulldozed homes didn't know of any peace deal... nor one that is on its way... How about I send someone to bulldoze your house (maybe with you still inside) and tell you that the destruction of your home is for a highway that may or may not come up... lol. what about the value of your home that you didn't receive, what about your family history that may have been on that home, what about the belongings in your home, what about the injustice of the whole mess... What would you do?

As far as 700 000 jews being pushed out of their homes... two wrongs don't make a right and I agree that the expelling of jews around the arab world was not fair.

I disagree with you on Sharon, and he has Palestinian blood all over him. He's been a war criminal from the start and Israelis should be ashamed to elect such a monster as prime minister.

Here's a little clip for ya.

From Israeli Jornalist Jeffrey Stienburg (not some Palestinian)


In 1953, Sharon founded "Unit 101," a secret death squad within the IDF that committed several mass murders of civilians. In October 1953, Sharon's "Unit 101" massacred 66 innocent civilians during a cross-border raid into the Jordanian West Bank village of Qibya. Under intense machine-gun fire, local residents were driven into their homes, which were then blown up around them, killing the occupants by burying them alive in piles of rubble. The April 2002 IDF massacre at the Palestinian refugee camp in Jenin was, in fact, modeled on Sharon's "Unit 101" operations at Qibya.

In June 1974, Sharon personally led a group of settlers to establish an illegal outpost near the West Bank town of Nablus. It was the first of many such ventures that Sharon would sponsor, under the rhubric of the drive to "Judaize the territories."

In 1977 as agriculture ministure, Sharon launched a massive expansion of Jewish "agricultural settlements" throughout the West Bank and Gaza. During 1977-81, more than 25,000 new settlers mostly members of the Gush Emunim moved into the occupied territories. The Gush Emunim settlers formed into death squads explicitly modelled on Sharon's old "Unit 101." They would play a pivotal role in a filthy Anglo-American Zionist criminal enterprise known as "Landscam" (click for more). Killing innocent Palestinians for their homes, then destroying them.

On Sept. 19, 1982, the United Nations Security Council passed Resolution 521, harshly condemning the massacres at the camps. In a distant mirror of the current genocide in Jenin, Ramallah, and Bethlehem, Sharon ignored the international condemnations. Today, Sharon faces war crimes prosecution in court in Belgium (click for more) for his role in the Sabra and Shatila massacres, as the result of a lawsuit filed on June 18, 2001 by 23 survivors of the attacks.


And it goes on to when he finally becomes prime minister in 2000, and continues to build settlements, and murder Palestinians

Do you really think this man can lead Israel to a peaceful resolve? Do you think he wants resolve?

"Mosques and churches have been profaned and desecrated by inebriated Israeli soldiers who see themselves as soldiers of David. But they are, in reality, behaving like soldiers of Goliath. Even the sacred Church of Nativity, the birth place of Jesus Christ, has not been spared; one of its portals was blown to pieces by Israeli shells. Priests and other church people, venerated by Palestinians of all shades, have been rudely shoved and kicked by arrogant soldiers of Sharon. He's a monster, who has no intention for peace as settlements continue to come up in the spot where Palestinians were killed for their homes. He's also promised never to take down such settlements, illegally built on Palestinian territory... Israel has broken several U.N. resolutions as a result of bulldozing homes in favour of new Israeli settlements....."

"When combat occurs in Urban environments it is impossible to prevent civilian losses completely. Nearly all civilian losses on the West Bank are accidents. The burden of proof is on you to prove that any single incident is not an accident but intentional. Most scientist in forinsics can tell an obvious accident from a targeted killing. This was done in the Jenin raid last year. It was determine that only 48 civilians were killed instead of the 7,000 that the Palestinians claimed. All of the 48 civilians were killed as a result of accidents and mistakes."

You call such autrosities lies by the Palestinians... I don't think that's fair.... I don't know what to say really... If you don't want to see the truth don't... I do agree Israeli teens should live in peace... I am not an advocate of suicide bombing... But as I've said before, the oppressor creates the suicide bomber... You've got a 70% poverty rate in Palestine, 50% of children are malnourished... There homes have been bombed and destroyed, they've been dispossessed of their homes and families. It is from such a culture that the suicide bomber arises... Israel's oppression, aggreesion and humiliation made the suicide bomber.
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Old 04-26-2003, 11:40 AM   #30
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Originally posted by STING2
Scarletwine,

Yes you might find a diversity of views among such people, but I already know which people they selectively decided to talk to and what their views were without having watched the film.
I think that is a little short sighted of you. Unless you have actually seen the film you can't possible make a definitive judgement on it. The film may have been titled after it was filmed based on information learned.

I don't think bias necessarily makes things untrue. Maybe you could free your mind enough to see the other side. That was what I was suggesting.
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