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Old 07-11-2002, 03:43 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba
...threats (...) to our interests.
And there you have it...
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Old 07-11-2002, 04:07 PM   #17
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And there you have it...
Yes, God forbid we look after our own interests.
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Old 07-11-2002, 05:09 PM   #18
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I have come to a conclusion....

Bubba thinks his country is without spot or blemish...they have never done anything wrong.

This is alright I suppose - you have to love your country
but I think you let your biases control you too much. It comes out soo clear all the time.

It blows my mind how you can actually say the U.S did not become consumed with paranoia during the cold war

thats all the f**king thing was! a big pot of paranoid fantasys on both counrty's behalf.

I don't think America OR the Soviet Union made one right move during the whole fiasco.
And the Soviets WERE not evil!! This is the most generalizing and stereotypical thing I have heard you say.

I have huge respect for you A Bubba, you know SOOO very much about such a broad range of subjects...I really wish I could be as knowledgable as you but not if it comes with my eyes being blinded by bias.
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Old 07-11-2002, 07:32 PM   #19
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Nope, I don't think we're "without spot or blemish." The overreaction on McCarthy's part was a BAD thing. But however excessive his reaction was, it was a reaction to a LEGITIMATE threat - not a "big pot of paranoid fantasys".

Once again: Cuban. Missle. Crisis.

And the Soviets WERE evil, or the word "evil" is meaningless.

Joseph Stalin greased the wheels of the Soviet machine with the blood of 20 million of his own people. The Soviets crushed freedoms religious, political, and economic.

The Soviets epitomized evil. If not the Soviets, who?
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Old 07-11-2002, 08:18 PM   #20
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Achtung Bubba and Shriek are both wrong: the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals has FORTY-FIVE judges, not 3. A panel of any 3 judges typically hears a case on its initial appeal, the entire active circuit may hear a re-hearing. It is intersting to note that the Nonth Circuit is the most overturned, reversed, and otherwise remanded appellate circuit in the land. Too bad judges can't be removed for shitty opinions.

Overall, I agree with Achtung Bubba and a few of the others, but I think that this never-ending debate illustrates the problems of interpretation and intent. The fact of the matter is that NO ONE is REQUIRED to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, in whole or in part. If the mention of God in a ceremonial oath is tantamount to theocracy, then so is the case for the Declaration of Independence's references to God and the Creator, and the Constitution's use of the word "Blessings" (with a capital 'B'). I honestly think this plaintiff was complaining of being "offended" at the presence of the word "God" in the Pledge.

What do such people propose for people who continue to say "under God"? jail time? What if I were a public school teacher and I said "under God" when reciting the pledge each day? Would you fire me? Put me in handcuffs? Whip me till I like it?

Shriek, I have two possible remedies for you which would likely be more amicable:

(1) When reciting the pledge, leave out the words "under God," or,

(2) Propose, via you congressional representatives, the following Amendement to the United States Constitution:

The right of every individual to never be offended or feel left out shall not be infringed.

~U2Alabama
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Old 07-12-2002, 09:07 PM   #21
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And I think it's funny now that Mr. Newdow's daughter and her mother have come forward and revealed that THEY are church-going Christians and have no objection to "under God" being in the Pledge! So if the daughter was an original plaintiff but was not "harmed" or "wounded" as Mr. Newdow claims, wouldn't that make it a FRIVOLOUS LAWSUIT? I am further convinced that Mr. Newdow is an attention-starved BOOB.

~U2Alabama
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Old 07-12-2002, 11:52 PM   #22
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Bama:

Good call about Newdow, but you forgot "exploitive." After all, if he cared a whit about the how his daughter will be treated within the walls of a public school, he should not have sued the government in HER name when she doesn't actually object to the pledge.
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Old 07-13-2002, 09:57 AM   #23
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Although, this is not the main point of this thread, I'm here to tell that the Soviet government and military were evil in many respects and that they posed a massive threat to the world. I can demonstrate that by simply listing their conventional military strength and efforts vs. the US and its allies during the Cold War. Look at what Soviet troops did in Eastern Europe. Look at what Soviet troops did in Afghanistan during the 80s. Look at Soviet military strategies and training designed to take over Western Europe in less than 4 weeks! Look at the Soviet suppression of Eastern Europe, the Berlin Wall, on and on. The Soviet Union itself was a prison house of nations! While often refered to as Russia and Russians during the Cold War, Soviets were also Ukrainians, Kazaks, Estonians, Chechans, who were dominated by Moscow, as they had been for hundreds of years during the reigns of the Czars.
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Old 07-13-2002, 10:46 AM   #24
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Citizens of the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics were not "evil" as a group, but I definitely have a problem with most of the policies of the Soviet government and military (and yes, I took "History of Soviet Russia" at a Liberal Arts college in the early 90s, so I am not just saying what I read in the newspaper).

The Soviets (meaning the government) had a rather imperialistic diplomatic policy that had 2 strong components: the establishment of a "bloc" of nations around the border of the USSR, and the establishment of satelite governments around the world. They did not hide this policy; it was simply their policy of spreading THEIR agenda around the world.

As U2 fans, many of us look back at Soviet communism as a disappointment for it not succeeding, as a memory of "what could have been." Many of us would have been more jubilant at the fall of the United States and western Europe instead of the fall of the USSR and the Eastern Bloc governments because with the Soviet system, the people allegedly owned all of the resources and industry. We look at the sacrifices of not being able to listen to U2 (or other western music) freely as a small price to pay for everyone being "equal" or "the same." So what if people were not able to assemble and worship God as they chose? At least that kept the Baptists and Catholics from arguing! So what if Stalin took care of a bunch of unruly Jews; Jews as a group usually do not want to lose their identity, and such stubbornness has NO PLACE in the Soviet dream! And when the US "interferred" with this Soviet dream and helped groups that did not want to become Soviets, that gives us all the more reason to hate the US!

Sure, the US took many actions around the world to combat such a spread, and many of those actions were probably not appropriate. But sometimes the only way to counter military might and propaganda is with military might and propaganda.

~U2Alabama
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Old 07-13-2002, 10:49 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Although, this is not the main point of this thread, I'm here to tell that the Soviet government and military were evil in many respects and that they posed a massive threat to the world. I can demonstrate that by simply listing their conventional military strength and efforts vs. the US and its allies during the Cold War.
So...military strength is an indicator of 'evil'? The United States is the biggest military power in the world, does that make it the most evil?

Efforts vs. the US and its allies...are US efforts against its 'enemies' are also evil then?:
  • Grenada
  • Guatemala
  • Nicaragua
  • Chile
  • El Salvador
  • Cambodia
  • Laos
  • Vietnam
  • Korea
  • Panama
  • Indonesia
  • Iran
  • Libya
  • Iraq
  • Afghanistan
Thos are just some examples of US interventions since WW2. If we equate interventionism with evil then what does that make the United States?
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Old 07-13-2002, 10:53 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees

Efforts vs. the US and its allies...are US efforts against its 'enemies' are also evil then?:
  • Indonesia
Thos are just some examples of US interventions since WW2. If we equate interventionism with evil then what does that make the United States?
errr, I'm quite familiar with Indonesia, having spent most of my life there. Please update me with what exactly the U.S. has done to intrude upon their sovereignty? Because if I recall correctly the U.S. has done more to aid their government than anyone.
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Old 07-13-2002, 11:06 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4


errr, I'm quite familiar with Indonesia, having spent most of my life there. Please update me with what exactly the U.S. has done to intrude upon their sovereignty?
Support for the 1965 military coup which brought Suharto to power and involved the murder of some 700,000 people in just a few months. To be fair to the United States, other Western countries were also happy to see Suharto come to power because of his willingness to trade with Western countries, and their willingness in turn to supply weapons to allow him to continue the murder of his country's citizens.
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Old 07-13-2002, 11:09 AM   #28
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yes, I'm quite familiar with the coup and the ensuing massacre (having known people who had to hide for their lives during that time-period), but I was under the impression that you were adding Indonesia to the list of places where the U.S. has intruded upon national sovereignty and whatnot. In this case, as far as I can recall the U.S. did more to stay out of the way and look the other way than in actively participating.
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Old 07-13-2002, 11:14 AM   #29
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Way to take an important quotation by George Kennan out of context, Fizz.

[edit: looks like FizzingWhizzbees removed the sig from his last post?]
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Old 07-13-2002, 11:32 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
yes, I'm quite familiar with the coup and the ensuing massacre (having known people who had to hide for their lives during that time-period), but I was under the impression that you were adding Indonesia to the list of places where the U.S. has intruded upon national sovereignty and whatnot. In this case, as far as I can recall the U.S. did more to stay out of the way and look the other way than in actively participating.
The US was sending military aid to Indonesia at this time, and even though it's relations with the Indonesian government were increasingly hostile, it did have close links with the military. Secretary of Defence McNamara actually told Congress that he believed US relations with the Indonesian military had now paid dividends and described Indonesia as "a gleam of light in Asia."

Former CIA agent, Ralph McGehee stated "I know the specific steps the agency took to create the conditions that led to the massacre of at least half a million Indonesians." He's also written a book and several articles about his time in the CIA, with particular reference to Indonesia. I can try to find some of them available online if you're interested in reading them?
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