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Old 09-16-2004, 05:34 AM   #16
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There is no logical paradox because time is a dimension within the universe, in the absence of the universe there isn't time. Things may be different, branes floating in a higher dimensional space who knows?

There is nobody who can definitively say that there is or is not a God because if given infinite possibilities it is a logical conclusion that somewhere, someplace an all powerful God must exist. It is interesting to consider something like that, now if God decided to show himself only to a few notable madmen over the course of human history and make this pathetic little ball of rock the most crutial part of all creation - well that is a bit more of a stretch and I would agree that every bit of religious text is bunk, but it's bunk that has some very good knowledge in there as well as a whole lot of bad stuff.
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Old 09-16-2004, 05:35 AM   #17
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BTW how old are you guys? I am only 17, and I find that U2 fans are very intellectual. You look at any other collaboration of fans from genres like rap\pop\hip-hop, they are vastly different to you people. I can't stand them. I guess the intellect in U2's music arrouses the interest of intellectual people obviously (you guys). Hey I can kinda relate to people finally!

GO VERTIGO GO! 8 more days ppl! WOOOO!
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Old 09-16-2004, 05:43 AM   #18
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I am in uni, I am only a few years older than you and also an Aussie. I was contemptuous of peoples beliefs when I was your age but lets just say that I have been humbled by a few people with faith and knowledge. If you want to see the fruits of self righteous atheism to create a perfect society the Soviet Union is a great example, the destruction wrought upon the religious institutions was evil. I suggest (if you haven't allready) that you go out and read some philosophy on the subject of faith and puropse, existentialism etc. Sartre, Camus are good starting points. They are too often just French intellectuals grinding frivilous points about the dark meaninglessness of existence but it can help you get a lay of the land so to speak.
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Old 09-16-2004, 05:45 AM   #19
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I'll just say that I'm not an atheist. I'm a practicing Catholic Christian. I do respect other people's views to the contrary.
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Old 09-16-2004, 05:46 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
There is no logical paradox because time is a dimension within the universe, in the absence of the universe there isn't time. Things may be different, branes floating in a higher dimensional space who knows?

There is nobody who can definitively say that there is or is not a God because if given infinite possibilities it is a logical conclusion that somewhere, someplace an all powerful God must exist. It is interesting to consider something like that, now if God decided to show himself only to a few notable madmen over the course of human history and make this pathetic little ball of rock the most crutial part of all creation - well that is a bit more of a stretch and I would agree that every bit of religious text is bunk, but it's bunk that has some very good knowledge in there as well as a whole lot of bad stuff.
Of course I cannot definatively write off the possibility of there not being a God as FACT, 100% true. Just like anyone can't say that God 100% exists, I tried to set up my argument in the form that it was purely an informed opinion, open to a margin of error. I got flamed by not making my angle of attack clear enough.

Anyway, I disagree where a you said a 'logical conclusion that somewhere, someplace an all powerful God must exist.' Like I said before, according to my logic, without any real knowledge of God at all, just an illusionary (IMO again) image of one, the line must be drawn at the start. What we do know however, is that of science, and that is where the line should logically be drawn in my mind.
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Old 09-16-2004, 05:49 AM   #21
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Normal Re: Okay this is what I have to say to all you Christians

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Originally posted by AussieU2fanman


God doesn't exist. Jesus was either just a good man who :
never claimed to be God, claimed to be god or simply never existed. This man was perfect to become the figurehead of a new Jewish Sect. This religion was desperately needed as a relief from Paganism (which taught that God hated humans) and the Jewish law that was very burdonsome (circumcision). Years and years later of ORAL history (we all know how reliable that is!) the Gospels were written, where Jesus was made into this God-like creature that could heal people, and resurrect from the dead! From then on, bullshit after bullshit was layed upon these doctrines and the Bible and WHAZOO, we have Christianity.
The gospels were written by groups of people (eg John). These people were relying on history that came down after generations via word of mouth. The Gospels are either purely ficticious (to create Jesus into this almighty figure) or they were gathered from information from word of mouth. Now come on people, how could any of you believe a WORD the Bible says! It baffles me! People that live their lives by the Bible are, in my opinion, quit ignorant. I can't put it any other way.

I could go on and on, but I won't. People that believe in any religion fascinate me. Did they really make an independent leap of faith or are they merely holding on in order for salvation (You wouldn't want to burn in hell with all the fire and sharp things! BTW this scare tactic which the Church implemented is downright mean to those gullible\slow people).


Some people are brought up in a certain faith, others find the faith which they feel suits them most. I doubt most of them are just holding on for salvation. And hell being described as being full of sharp things? Where did you get that one from? I thought hell was described in the bible as a place full of "darkness" and "everlasting punishment"

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However, you people all need religion, not me, you guys. Without it, there will be chaos obviously.
In my opinon, everyone needs something. Religion for some people is a way to keep structure in their life. My Gran used to say that everytime she was in trouble God helped her see clearly, she said that going to mass and saying the rosary was part of her routine and it kept her in check. Regardless of whether or not God exists religion was something that was stable in her life and Ican't say that's a bad thing.

I think you are being offensive to peoples beliefs here. So, it's alright for you to say God doesn't exist because you have some 'facts' which you believe are solid proof for why he never existed and we should all believe you? Where did you get your 'facts' from? Are they really that credible?

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And by the way, if God supposedly gave us reason, why must we abide by his rules and not use our own judgement (I admire the ethics of Humanism!).
Sorry? I thought we were allowed to use our own judgement. God creates everyone with free will. It is up to us to use our judgement to follow a good life. I read somewhere once that evil existed because of people using their free choice to disobey god and follow a deceitful life.
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Old 09-16-2004, 05:50 AM   #22
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Originally posted by verte76
I'll just say that I'm not an atheist. I'm a practicing Catholic Christian. I do respect other people's views to the contrary.
I can respect other people's views IF they respect mine and everyone else's, but this person obviously doesn't. He thinks he has all the answers and everyone else is stupid, and that is presumptuous, rude and illogical. I've heard people who go to various different churches say that they are right and everyone else is wrong/stupid/going to hell and that is bad too. We can all believe what we want, but it isn't nice to diss anyone else's views. And if he has proof that God doesn't exist, he must be privvy to some information no one else has, because no one has ever been able to prove or disprove his existence since the beginning of time.
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Old 09-16-2004, 05:51 AM   #23
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I know my physics, and what I am talking about here is infinite.

Infinite is a difficult concept to grasp, it elluded humanity almost as much as zero.

If there are regions in all of what exists that can have different physical laws and dimensions and that there are an infinite number of permutations of there and an infinite permutation of particles within it is a logical conclusion that every possible scenario capable of existing must occur. There must be a 2 dimensional universe that is just like The Simpsons if it conforms to that universes physical laws. Infinite is just that, infinite. There must be some situation whereby the existence of God can be governed by particular physical laws and science.

Now to wrap your mind around infinite I pose you this; 1/0
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Old 09-16-2004, 05:53 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I am in uni, I am only a few years older than you and also an Aussie. I was contemptuous of peoples beliefs when I was your age but lets just say that I have been humbled by a few people with faith and knowledge. If you want to see the fruits of self righteous atheism to create a perfect society the Soviet Union is a great example, the destruction wrought upon the religious institutions was evil. I suggest (if you haven't allready) that you go out and read some philosophy on the subject of faith and puropse, existentialism etc. Sartre, Camus are good starting points. They are too often just French intellectuals grinding frivilous points about the dark meaninglessness of existence but it can help you get a lay of the land so to speak.
What would you being studying in University then? You sound quite interesting. I only am aware of basic philosophies and ethical systems. I admire Durkheim, Marx and Eliade and Humanism which emphasizes reason is my preferred ethical system. Durkheim and Marx emphasize the fact that religion bonds and brings together society basically, which is essential to order and regulation. I love reading up on these philosophers, they are fascinating. I am not so interested in theologians however.
BTW I hope to follow a most profane pathway of engineering when I complete my final year of school. :P
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Old 09-16-2004, 05:57 AM   #25
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Originally posted by U2Kitten


I can respect other people's views IF they respect mine and everyone else's, but this person obviously doesn't. He thinks he has all the answers and everyone else is stupid, and that is presumptuous, rude and illogical. I've heard people who go to various different churches say that they are right and everyone else is wrong/stupid/going to hell and that is bad too. We can all believe what we want, but it isn't nice to diss anyone else's views. And if he has proof that God doesn't exist, he must be privvy to some information no one else has, because no one has ever been able to prove or disprove his existence since the beginning of time.
Have you read my other posts? Initally I tried to make out that I was writing a purely informed opinion, not that everything you guys say is bullshit! I may or may not have made that clear. I'm trying to listen to everything you guys are trying to say, and it seems you are somewhat hypocritical by not reading mine. I am fully respecting everything everyone is saying, not writing them off as bullshit! I am definately not saying that I am completely right and I have all the answers. In my first post I was giving everything said in the form of an opinion. Sorry if you took me the wrong way.
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Old 09-16-2004, 06:01 AM   #26
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I am doing science, good bit of maths/physics and biology and going along to major in geology. See most engineers have the unfortunate fact of being unable to complete a coherant sentence, not to mention the ratio of the sexes. Now science, whole different ball game, you have the solid concepts only rather than looking at material stress on a bridge its like the electron degeneracy pressure of an imploding star. And there are also better ratios, I abhor those damn arts students, for all their newfound "knowledge" most are latte socialists and postmodern fools.

I myself have been engrossed with the foundations of liberalism when it comes to philosophys. I have a profound loathing of authoritarianism and despotism.
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Old 09-16-2004, 06:08 AM   #27
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Re: Re: Okay this is what I have to say to all you Christians

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Originally posted by Lara Mullen


Sorry? I thought we were allowed to use our own judgement. God creates everyone with free will. It is up to us to use our judgement to follow a good life. I read somewhere once that evil existed because of people using their free choice to disobey god and follow a deceitful life.
But if we fully follow a Christian tradition, aren't we really using reason? Sure we may be partially using our judgement though life, but ultimately any action should boil down to his rules doesn't it? He (you people think) gave us irreducable rules in the form of the Bible, 10 commandments, numerous doctrines etc. which must be followed no questions asked. Shouldn't moral and ethical decisions be based using no reference to a superior moral governor?(God) Shouldn't we look to the common humanity and goodness found in ourselves in order to make a decision? That, my friend, is true reason. Although I don't actually practice humanism, I certainly adore it's theories.
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Old 09-16-2004, 06:12 AM   #28
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But reason and religion are irreconcilable, reason and humanity are pretty hard to get together in any case.
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Old 09-16-2004, 06:18 AM   #29
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Re: Re: Re: Okay this is what I have to say to all you Christians

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Originally posted by AussieU2fanman


But if we fully follow a Christian tradition, aren't we really using reason? Sure we may be partially using our judgement though life, but ultimately any action should boil down to his rules doesn't it? He (you people think) gave us irreducable rules in the form of the Bible, 10 commandments, numerous doctrines etc. Shouldn't moral and ethical decisions be based using no reference to a superior moral governor?(God) Shouldn't we look to the common humanity and goodness found in ourselves in order to make a decision? That, my friend, is true reason.
Why the "you people think"? I haven't said what my religous beliefs are. Don't assume I believe we have to listen to everything God has told us in the bible, 10 commandments etc because I don't. The opinions I have on certain moral and ethical topics aren't based on the word of God. They are based on what I believe is right. I am not a very religous person. I haven't been to church in 8 years. I feel that I am still a good person. regardless of whether or not I belive if God exists the teachings of the bible or the 10 commandments should be put into practice by folk more. There is nothing wrong with trying to be a better person.
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Old 09-16-2004, 06:21 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
But reason and religion are irreconcilable, reason and humanity are pretty hard to get together in any case.
Sure reason and religion are incompatible, I agree.
And humanity and reason can be a somewhat dangerous combination. I'm not saying that if we all use reason instead of obeying a supreme moral goverenor, we would all be living in harmony. However, I believe that the conflict between religions would be more dangerous than reason based on humanity.
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