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Old 12-13-2009, 06:36 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by phillyfan26 View Post
This sentence is so incredibly vague that is actually says absolutely nothing.
Its just saying that there is no country or culture that is immune to forces that cause change. Do you disagree?

Do you support Obama's surge of sending 40,000 more troops to Afghanistan over the next 6 months?
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Old 12-13-2009, 07:36 PM   #257
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Its just saying that there is no country or culture that is immune to forces that cause change. Do you disagree?

Do you support Obama's surge of sending 40,000 more troops to Afghanistan over the next 6 months?
I can't agree or disagree because it's so vague. "Forces that cause change?" I mean, that's completely subjective.

I have not formed an opinion on Obama's foreign policy plan. I've been out of the loop on that for the last couple of months.
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Old 12-13-2009, 08:20 PM   #258
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Which makes me wonder why the folks who strongly opposed the Iraq Surge aren't going batshit crazy about this new one.


i knew this was the subtext.

i'll give you some reasons:

1. most of us, at least myself, understood why we were in Afghanistan and have long pointed to it as the actual war we should be involved in, as opposed to Mr. Bush's Wild Ride in Iraq.

2. i feel confident that Obama makes decisions out of logic and reason, not impatience and vindictiveness; thus, Obama may make many decisions that i disagree with, but i feel better about his own conclusion. this is what adults do, and GWB was most assuredly not an adult (at least not until Gates took over in 2006).

i still don't feel "the surge" achieved it's aims in Iraq, and i'm not optimistic about Afghanistan. i generally agree with your assessment of the military situation. however, i understand Obama's reasons, and i hope he's right.
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Old 12-13-2009, 11:14 PM   #259
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I can't agree or disagree because it's so vague. "Forces that cause change?" I mean, that's completely subjective.
Well, lets start with education. Do you think education can be considered something that can change a society? 88% of Afghanistans women cannot read or write. Its been found in Pakistan that women who are literate are much less likely to have sons that grow up to join extremist groups or become sucide bombers.

An Afghan village that has never had running water, electricity, or a school gets all three as well as security to protect the village. How could one say that is not going to make a difference in the lives of the people there?
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Old 12-13-2009, 11:53 PM   #260
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i knew this was the subtext.

i'll give you some reasons:

1. most of us, at least myself, understood why we were in Afghanistan and have long pointed to it as the actual war we should be involved in, as opposed to Mr. Bush's Wild Ride in Iraq.
Well much of the discussion in December 2006 and January 2007 was not focused on the question of the invasion of Iraq, but whether the Surge would be an effective strategy for solving Iraq's problems at the time.

Quote:
i still don't feel "the surge" achieved it's aims in Iraq, and i'm not optimistic about Afghanistan.
Here is what David Sanger recently reported about Obama and his administrations feelings about the Iraq surge in December 2009:

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WASHINGTON - President Obama strongly opposed President George W. Bush’s surge in Iraq during his presidential campaign, and even now he has never publicly acknowledged that it was largely successful.

But in the White House Situation Room a little more than a month ago, he told his aides, “It turned out to be a good thing.” And as many of Mr. Obama’s own advisers have recounted in recent days in interviews, the decision on the surge of 30,000 troops to Afghanistan by next summer was at least partly inspired by the success of the effort in Iraq, which Mr. Bush’s aides say is their best hope that historians will give them some credit when the history of a highly problematic war is written.

In fact, Iraq analogies have been flying back and forth so furiously in recent days that Secretary of Defense Robert M. Gates, the only holdover from the Bush-era cabinet, told Congress, “This is the second surge I’ve been up here defending.”
NYT: Similarities to Iraq surge mask Afghan risks - The New York Times- msnbc.com


How can you look at where Iraq was in January 2007 and where Iraq is now in December 2009, and say that the surge did not work, or at least have a very significant impact on the situation?

The United States military, General Patreus, General McCrystal, Secretary Of Defense Robert Gates, and Barack Obama are certainly NOT operating on the assumption that the surge in Iraq failed, or had no sigificant impact.

It is precisely the huge success of the surge strategy in Iraq which has provided much of the momentum and support around the surge for Afghanistan.
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Old 12-14-2009, 09:24 AM   #261
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Did anyone watch the Oprah special last night? (probably not because it's Oprah). He gave himself a B+ and said (with a laugh) that if health care passes before the end of the year it would be an A-. He was also on 60 Minutes last night.

He and Michelle have such a natural, easy way with each other. They seem to have a relationship that's truly enviable.
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Old 12-14-2009, 06:31 PM   #262
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^ I watched it for a while before dozing off. They are great to watch interviewed together, very natural and genuine.

Obama's going to get a ton of Whitehouse 'drop by' and Air Force One ride requests now.
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Old 12-14-2009, 06:37 PM   #263
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I think she brings out the best aspects of him

I didn't think he should have given himself a B+..maybe just say that's up to the American people or like Charlie Gibson suggested, an incomplete. Maybe it was just a silly question-like what kind of tree would you be. But you can decline to answer-I think the President can say no to O. Maybe he's the only one who can and still be living.

I have to admit that I was thinking about those silly tabloid stories about Oprah having a thing for Obama and Michelle being upset about it. No catfight ensued. Well at least not on camera
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Old 12-14-2009, 06:47 PM   #264
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lol I didn't know there were tabloid stories about that but I did notice Oprah had that goofy high-school crush look about her the whole time she was with him but I just figured, who wouldn't??

B+ was as a direct yet safe answer as you can get.
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Old 12-14-2009, 06:52 PM   #265
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I did notice Oprah had that goofy high-school crush look about her the whole time she was with him but I just figured, who wouldn't??
I would. O had so much makeup on too That can be a tell tale sign. It looked really bad in HD.

I asked my mother if Oprah would go for him if he was single and dump Stedman and she said yes, definitely. I think definitely yes as well. If we ever had a hot single President that would be so good on so many levels.
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Old 12-14-2009, 07:25 PM   #266
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Note to Mrs. Obama to beware of MrsSpringsteen!
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Old 12-14-2009, 08:34 PM   #267
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I asked my mother if Oprah would go for him if he was single and dump Stedman and she said yes, definitely.


i think Oprah only has eyes for Gayle.
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Old 12-17-2009, 02:19 AM   #268
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Will Obama be insane enough to sign a HC bill with the mandated coverage?

Because if I had to pick one form of political suicide for him, this would be it.
He'd be better off doing almost anything else.

I honestly can't believe it's still in the fucking bill.

As much as it pains me to say, I actually caught myself agreeing with Olbermann's special comment tonight. No, I don't totally share his opinion about the public option (not comfortable with the cost/strain on resources, w/o major tax hike) but I agree 100% with what he said about Lieberman (what a fantastic douche he is) Obama (getting his ass handed to him, politically) and Congress (generally speaking).

But mostly about how Obama might be sealing his fate if he signs a bill with that mandate in it. He might even have a Dem primary challenger in 2012. Because this can easily, easily be argued as a tax hike (not to mention the context of this economy and all his other problems). It's political arsenic by itself (ask Bush 41) but coupled with everything together, he would be done for.

Maybe even a lame-duck for the next 3 years. I'm serious, because the '10 campaigns will begin after the new year and the political hammering will begin, his Dems will have to move away from him (if he signs an 'effective tax hike') and his agenda would then be static. He wouldn't be able to get anything done. Well, more simply, if he loses the House or the Senate in '10, you can kiss those last two years goodbye anyways.

Would he be this stupid or is he waiting for something to happen before he can have it taken out? I really don't know.

On the flipside, he can get healthcare reform, even if it means w/o a public option and claim a monumental political victory. It's just baffling to me right now...
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:10 AM   #269
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On the flipside, he can get healthcare reform, even if it means w/o a public option and claim a monumental political victory. It's just baffling to me right now...
With the White House (Robert Gibbs) officially calling Howard Dean a boob I feel really bad about where this presidency is headed to be honest.
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Old 12-17-2009, 09:20 AM   #270
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Lieberman is a fantastic douche. that is for certain.
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