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Old 11-04-2004, 02:30 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kristie
You know, if a person is so unhappy with their country and the atmosphere of the people around them that they are willing to leave all their friends and family behind and move to a whole new country, I don't think it's whining or wimpy. Would you say that of someone that moved out of a bad part of town because they're afraid of their neighbors? If they took their kids to an area with better schools in order to try and give them a better life? They had the choice to stay and fight for change, too.

Usually I just lurk here and don't post, but I feel especially strongly about this.
It depends. If they're running away from something, it could be wimpy. Things aren't THAT bleak here.
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Old 11-04-2004, 02:31 PM   #62
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Originally posted by disco2blue
Indeed, U2traveller, the lack of structure on these spincases will allow them to self-implode, and perhaps we can get some stability going for many years to come.

By the way, U2traveller, GibsonGirl or anyone else, anyone hear that U2 b-side 'Are you gonna wait forever'? I'm dying to know what it sounds like even though it's only a b-side... but I loved the songs 'Summer Rain' and 'Always' as b sides, so it could be great!

-- Nicholas --
I haven't heard that song. I also like Summer Rain and Always. Their B-sides are always interested and worth owning. They show a side of U2 most don't see if you just go for the albums and popular stuff.
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Old 11-04-2004, 02:39 PM   #63
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Will everyone emigrating move in with DaveC and his mom?
Excuse me...?
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Old 11-04-2004, 02:39 PM   #64
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No, I think Michael Griffiths would probably let me crash with him.
Absolutey
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:01 PM   #65
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Originally posted by U2Traveller


Are you suggesting Americans have a worse quality of life?
In certain areas, yes. I live in Newfoundland... We've had a grand total of about two or three murders here over this past year, and that's considered to be a lot. If you compare crime in Canada as a whole to the US, there's an obvious difference. In Canada, we also have much more social assistance available for people who need it.

The general impression I get from many people I know who are American, is that they live in fear. I haven't feared for my life in Canada from the moment I set foot in the country. Even in Toronto.

So while Canada does have its drawbacks, I think people do enjoy a higher standard of living here.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:09 PM   #66
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Hi GibsonGirl. I know you said that's a general impression, but I don't live in fear because I live in the States. I certainly don't fear for my life on a daily basis, the last time I possibly did was getting on a plane-fear of an accident, not terrorism. Or crossing a busy city street. My fear, whatever it might happen to be about, is fear of what other human beings are capable of doing to me.

I don't think that has anything to do w/ where I live, it's just a general fear. Granted I don't live in a large city but a relatively safer suburb. Man's inhumanity to man has no geographical boundaries. Obviously w/ more availability of weapons and different laws, things are different here, so that is true in that sense.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:14 PM   #67
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Originally posted by GibsonGirl


In certain areas, yes. I live in Newfoundland... We've had a grand total of about two or three murders here over this past year, and that's considered to be a lot. If you compare crime in Canada as a whole to the US, there's an obvious difference. In Canada, we also have much more social assistance available for people who need it.

The general impression I get from many people I know who are American, is that they live in fear. I haven't feared for my life in Canada from the moment I set foot in the country. Even in Toronto.

So while Canada does have its drawbacks, I think people do enjoy a higher standard of living here.
I don't agree at all. Where do your friends live? I do not fear every day of my life, and I see a lot of social assistance around here, and the crime where I live is relatively low. I live in a great state.

There are some areas of the U.S. I wouldn't want to live, either, but Utahns definitely have a high quality of life, as do many of the states around me. So, I think you're wrong, very wrong.

I'd say it's quite the other way around.

I want Social Security to be fixed, and for every person to be paid more, and for health insurance to be fixed, and I don't believe in owning guns and wish no one could BUT I can see people's point for being able to own them.

Americans have a great quality of life, and Utahns better than most states. Larger cities often have more problems.

Maybe your friends are just a little bit negative or hysterical, or live in bad areas of the country. Don't base their views as the way things are and how people feel as a whole.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:28 PM   #68
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Originally posted by disco2blue
GibsonGirl (I don't know how to use that white background quote thing?) - my point is, you would take a Liberal government and I'd take a Conserative government, and that is our right, is it not?
Point taken. Though, I do disagree with your claim that we Liberals are "fucking assholes to other human beings." In fact, we are the complete opposite. Left-wing views promote social equality. Times change, as do people and ideas. If people do not adjust their moral values to suit the times, they are the ones who come off looking like the "fucking assholes." Who are we to say what one person can or cannot do, based upon factors such as sexual orientation? If homosexuals want to marry each other, so be it. And this opinion is coming from me, a heterosexual Christian. Then there's the whole issue of stem cell research. If stem cell research could have the potential to lead to an improvement of the lives of hundreds upon thousands of people, why the hell aren't we allowing people to benefit from it? To me, the whole "oh you're destroying the potential for human life" is like saying "people can't use birth control, because you're eliminating the potential for human life." True, this all boils down to individual opinions, but it's frustrating to see so many close-minded viewpoints in people today. And don't even get me started on the war...

Anyway, I'm rambling now. By the way, if you want to use the quote feature, just place the text you want between quote tags, like so:

[ quote ] blah blah text goes here [ /quote ]

Just remove the spaces before the brackets and it should work out fine.

Quote:
Originally posted by cujo

Had Stephen Harper won this past election, I would have wholly considered a relocation of residence.
Oh, same. The current Conservatives we have floating around the House of Commons are actually quite frightening, Harper in particular. He is the spitting image of George Bush, except far more slimy.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:34 PM   #69
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Conservatives ALSO promote equality and peace. I am conservative and I am egalitarian, and I voted for Kerry.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:42 PM   #70
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Originally posted by U2Traveller


I don't agree at all. Where do your friends live? I do not fear every day of my life, and I see a lot of social assistance around here, and the crime where I live is relatively low. I live in a great state.
Didn't say you had to agree with me, I was just stating my opinion. Don't take it personally.

And trust me, I didn't just grab my opinion out of the air. I never said the standard of living in the US was bad, I'm just saying that Canada's standard is slightly higher. In every economics/social studies course I've ever taken, it has been labled as fact.

Some quotes:

The United Nations ranked Canada fourth on its Human Development Index in 2004. Canada has established a reputation for outstanding living conditions, earning the UN's top ranking for seven consecutive years, from 1994 to 2000. The country's standard of living, health care system, educational attainment, housing, cultural and recreational facilities, level of public safety and tourist opportunities are all of an exceptionally high quality.

http://www.2ontario.com/welcome/coca_801.asp

(Note that in that chart, Canada is ranked four slots higher than the US)



The standard of living in the United States is one of the highest in the world by almost any measure. On measures such as the UN Human Development Index the United States is always in the top ten. However, the United States is consistently ranked lower than Scandinavia, Canada, Australia, and Japan.

While the United States' mean wealth is the highest of any major country, its median wealth is considerably lower. Most of the extra money in the United States is the result of a much wealthier top section of the population. If the top five percent of the population is not included the average Canadian would be wealthier than the average American.

In terms of population with education beyond high school the United States is second only to Canada, and well ahead of most of Europe.


http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclop...-United-States
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:51 PM   #71
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Hello Again, Nicholas here.

First off, I'd like to thank Kristie and Cujo for their feedback, and I politely disagree.

The missile defence plan is not that simple to generalize so negatively. To believe that this concept of defence is not essential is dangerous. North Korea and Iran, and potentially several other organized countries, despise our 'sinner' culture and only want complete destruction of those who are not them (once again similar to extreme Leftists), it is not that easy and it is not that simple to condemn the entire idea of defence.
There is not much else to say about this matter, we disagree, we see the world differently, and that is our human nature by default.
As for GibsonGirl's slightly naive perception about Toronto and Newfoundland in relation to America, perhaps I can give another Canadian's perspective.
There are more murders than 2 or 3 in Newfoundland, and there are around 50 - 60 murders in Toronto, where I live, and most of those are gun related. But I will delve deeper into the deceiving fallacy of judging quality of life strictly based on murder statistics.
Newfoundland's quality of life cannot be determined solely by murder rates. My mother is from 'The Rock', and it is a beautiful place. However there are many problems in the quality of life in Newfoundland. There is an epidemic of Oxycontin addiction, a very powerful time-released narcotic used for cancer patients. Also, Newfoundland has one of the highest rates of Alcohol consumpstion and alcohol related illnesses and deaths. Domestic violence is common in Newfoundland, and that can perhaps be tied into the drug and alcohol problems the province faces. Unemployment rates are higher in Newfoundland than any other province in Canada. The fishing industry, previously its economic impetus, is dried up, largey owing to the Liberal government's inaction to foreign over-fishing - yes, GibsonGirl, I'm sure many fisherman would still vote Liberal just like you, because as Canadians we sure are suckers for abuse. Furthermore, Newfoundland has the second highest cancer rate in Canada as alcoholism does tend to breed other bad habits, such as Cigarette smoking.
As for Toronto - you feel safe where I live? You should live here a little more often before making such a statement. Toronto is turning into a very dirty, gang ridden place. I've been robbed once, assailed by drunks, smashed into by a road enraged motorist, my best friend was stabbed at a club - he is okay thankfully. Of course, stabbings like his case are not even reported fully any more because it is commonplace.
You think that Toronto is so terribly different from American cities? Hey, we have McDonalds, we have CSI on primetime, we have GM plants employing Eastern Ontario, and yes we have all the bad things that come with a 'North American' city - murders, general violence, dirtiness, prostitution, gangs, police brutality, racial tensions, and Snow... brrr!
Anyway, this is just another way of looking at this very typical Canadian snobbery - we're cleaner, safter, better. Hey guess what - we used to be a couple of things, but it is a fact that New York is just as safe and clean as Toronto - I know, I've been to both places.
Alas, Canada is united by our slogan 'We don't have as many murders as the U.S.'. That's good. But GibsonGirl, you can see that there are many other determining issues in a society. Let us not forgot, as it is stated right on our own Cigarette packages, second to Tobacco deaths is suicides. Yes, Canada has one of the highest suicide rates in the world, unfortunately. If we're perfect, I guess some people just don't feel perfect, huh?

Anyway, U2traveller, thanks for the song input, we'll hear it soon enough - and also, feel free to e mail me if you would like, and that goes for anyone too. You can reach me at:

zoou2@hotmail.com

Cool eh???

--- Nicholas ---
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:53 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by GibsonGirl


Didn't say you had to agree with me, I was just stating my opinion. Don't take it personally.

And trust me, I didn't just grab my opinion out of the air. I never said the standard of living in the US was bad, I'm just saying that Canada's standard is slightly higher. In every economics/social studies course I've ever taken, it has been labled as fact.

Some quotes:

The United Nations ranked Canada fourth on its Human Development Index in 2004. Canada has established a reputation for outstanding living conditions, earning the UN's top ranking for seven consecutive years, from 1994 to 2000. The country's standard of living, health care system, educational attainment, housing, cultural and recreational facilities, level of public safety and tourist opportunities are all of an exceptionally high quality.

http://www.2ontario.com/welcome/coca_801.asp

(Note that in that chart, Canada is ranked four slots higher than the US)



The standard of living in the United States is one of the highest in the world by almost any measure. On measures such as the UN Human Development Index the United States is always in the top ten. However, the United States is consistently ranked lower than Scandinavia, Canada, Australia, and Japan.

While the United States' mean wealth is the highest of any major country, its median wealth is considerably lower. Most of the extra money in the United States is the result of a much wealthier top section of the population. If the top five percent of the population is not included the average Canadian would be wealthier than the average American.

In terms of population with education beyond high school the United States is second only to Canada, and well ahead of most of Europe.


http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclop...-United-States
I'm sorry, but one "study" doesn't satisfy me.

All I know is that I have great opportunity here. I don't fear. I can be a small business owner and I can make a lot of money doing it. The opportunity for every American is there...and those who are lost, well, they need to be helped.

As for health...if Americans have health problems it's their own dang fault, not because the system is broken. We have the best healthcare in the world.

I believe that America is the best place to live for a lot of reasons, MANY that weren't even mentioned in that "study". Utah and some of its cities are consistently ranked one of the best places to live in the U.S. All I know is that I have it very good here in Utah and I have hopes it'll get even better with this new governor.

What's great about America is that if you don't like something you can change it. There's the opportunity and ability to do so.

America is a HUGE country, you must remember, for its population we are actually doing better than about anyone, if you ask me. I don't know about Japan. But, I seriously do not believe Canada has a better lifestyle. Not from what I've seen and heard.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:58 PM   #73
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Originally posted by U2Traveller
Conservatives ALSO promote equality and peace. I am conservative and I am egalitarian, and I voted for Kerry.
Good for you. (Didn't mean that in a smartass way. ) That response I made to disco2blue wasn't referring to ALL conservatives as close-minded people. I know that people have different views on equality, regardless of which side of the political spectrum they fall under. Hell, there are probably a fair number of liberals who agree with some of the moral values that have sent other liberals off into hissy fits.

Urgh, I think I'll just back out of this entire discussion entirely. Like my mother has always said, when people start discussing politics, all they end up doing is bitching at each other. And I'm normally not a very bitchy person.
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Old 11-04-2004, 04:01 PM   #74
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I don't know where these people are getting statistics or why Canadians think they have a better quality of life, but I think it's wrong.

And, they obviously haven't "studied" cities like my city which even people from Canada have remarked to me is a beautiful city and the CLEANEST city they've ever seen.
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Old 11-04-2004, 04:11 PM   #75
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Hello GibsonGirl, I would like to thank you for the lesson in quotation.
Also, I would like to apologize if I become seemingly angry at you at times, but this is what politics does.

Also I think we are encountering a problem - the division between conservatives and liberals is too black and white. I don't care if homosexuals marry, and I'm pro-choice for the most part. I also think Stem Cell research should be given more freedom. You see what I mean? Because I say I support Bush, or certain aspects of Conversatism, it does not mean I can be lumped into these assumptions. I only think that structure, integrity and purpose are the only ways to run an effective society, if you keep on blurring the lines, with no definite boundaries or moral code, then you have a very weak solidarity and it is then simply about the individual, not about what's best for society or the country. You need rules, just like a sport needs guidelines to assure there is no chaos - you can't just go around doing what you want when you want because 'I feel like it', could you imagine anarchy?
Also, GibsonGirl, to say that Liberals/Mooore/Democrats are the exact opposite of hateful, scornful people - it is very upsetting to me because you obviously did not really take any points from what I was saying about the hostility and judgement factors that I clearly stated - Myself incurring such hatred, and the threads of hatred started by Liberals - these cannot be denied, but I guess they sure as hell can be ignored.

I do not think I can write more about politics for much longer, it is a very hopeless feeling to not get across to people, and it is very depressing to know that human beings are placing ideals, ideas, and personal ego over basic respect for others.

Nicholas

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