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Old 02-05-2003, 03:43 AM   #91
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Minifly,

If you want a good examply of rubuilding a country after a war and developing a new government, look at what the USA did with Germany and Japan after World War II.
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Old 02-05-2003, 03:55 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Minifly,

If you want a good examply of rubuilding a country after a war and developing a new government, look at what the USA did with Germany and Japan after World War II.
So apparently my post is totally invalid? How cute. ANYWAY if you had paid any attention, I was referring consistantly to third world countries. Also, we didn't exactly rebuild Japan. It was a "built" society to begin with. The US, icluding President Truman, of whom I have mixed feelings about, had a chance to redress the grievances of the Chinese, anti war Japanese, and other countries Japan had taken control of in the East Asian region. However, the US did not, foregoing human rights for a secure foothold of capitalism in East Asia. How lovely. Also, the United States, used the preexsisting government that remained after the removal of the Emporer. Many officers and government officials who had allowed for things like the Rape of Nanking were still in power after WWII. So much for rebuilding.
Post WWII Germany is not an appropriate example for this, and neither is Japan, really, even though I felt like pointing out your historical ignorance.
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Old 02-05-2003, 04:13 AM   #93
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I'm certainly not ignorant of history and its rather presumtive and an unnecessary for you to make such a comment. The USA did rebuild both Japan and Germany and despite the fact that Iraq is a third world country, it does not make the comparison invalid, especially considering the condition that both Germany and Japan were in at the end of the war.
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Old 02-05-2003, 06:35 AM   #94
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I haven't even read this entire thread so sorry if some of this has already been said.

Firstly - nuclear weapons are illegal according to international law. Any weapon that can't distinguish between a combatant and non-combatant is illegal. Not that that's ever made a blind bit of difference to the country's that insist on developing them of course, but it's a point worth making.

Secondly - countries that have nuclear weapons have always maintained that it's a defensive position. They've always said they weren't for first-strike use, they were there to deter other countries with nuclear weapons from attacking. Personally I think they're an expensive and dangerous deterrent (1 billion a year for Britain's trident nuclear submarines and I've seen protestors swim out and stand on top of them, just imagine if someone swam out with a bomb...) but nonetheless, they're supposed to be a deterrent.

Thirdly - I don't think it's a new decision for the US to use nuclear weapons. They've been trying to develop a missile shield for the last twenty years in order that they can use nuclear weapons without fear of retaliation. It was Reagan's project and Bush is continuing it at full-speed now.

And finally - how can anyone believe nuclear weapons are justified under any circumstance? I can understand believing conventional warfare is justified (even though I don't usually support it) but to justify using nuclear weapons is just beyond me. They obliterate entire cities. Just look at pictures from Nagasaki and Hiroshima. How could anyone think it would be okay for that to happen again?
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Old 02-05-2003, 06:38 AM   #95
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Morning Fizz. I will not respond. I made my case earlier, but it is good to see u making a very intelligent post
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Old 02-05-2003, 06:51 AM   #96
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Thanks, Dreadsox I'll read back a bit and see what you thought.
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Old 02-05-2003, 07:59 AM   #97
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There's also something I don't think has been mentioned: as far as I know US have the strongest army in the world, right? Enough conventional weapons to defeat anyone, right?

So why would they need nuclear weapons anyway?

I don't think nuclear weapons should ever be a choice period.
(ever read any description how a survivor of nuclear attack looks like? VERY terrifying...)
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Old 02-05-2003, 11:43 AM   #98
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We cannot use nukes against Iraq--not now, and probably not ever. WWII had raged for several years before we used nuclear weapons against Japan, and millions of American soldiers had already died. Neither of those criterion have been met in this case. Nuclear warfare is devastating, and because Iraq is such a small country and the damage nuclear weapons can cause so wide-reaching, we would almost undoubtedly ending up hurting persons in other countries. There would certainly be civilian casualties numbering in the thousands. No nukes--not against Iraq, and hopefully not ever again.
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Old 02-05-2003, 12:49 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally posted by MiniFly
Trade is a big part of this equation. America must begin fair and equal trade with third world countries as opposed to dominating the trade to achieve unfair prices. How much do your bananas cost? and how much of that money do you think goes to the workers who picked them? Trade that is fair and equal is a huge part of pulling "undeveloped" countries out from under western domination.
Exactly.
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Old 02-05-2003, 12:51 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Minifly,

If you want a good examply of rubuilding a country after a war and developing a new government, look at what the USA did with Germany and Japan after World War II.
Yeah yeah it was cool and we still thank you for 1945

Mainly, though, it was not altruistic help, but credits, ok? Credits that were paid back.
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Old 02-05-2003, 01:00 PM   #101
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dont forget sting2, that america was on the verge of fanatical fascism in the earlier stages of the century too. thankfully they were smart enough not too incorporate it into the system.

so i guess that isnt much of a point, but really, in western society, the nazi's werent seen as anything that terrible because noone really had an idea as to what they were doing. which is stupid because had anyone read mein kampff hitler forecasted everything he was to do. except the end result ofcourse, which did not end in his favour.
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Old 02-05-2003, 01:15 PM   #102
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Plus, you asked me how you were betrayed, STING2?

Man, maybe you dont feel betrayed, right. But the elite of your country makes so much money by suppressing the rest of the world (except for Europe), that you should have a bigger share. You should live like in the land of milk and honey! No American would have the need to ever pay any hospital! No American would ever have the need to pay for his childrens college! Every American could get one car for free per year with the money your investors make!

You could have it all for FREE! With 1400 billions of $ circulating EVERY SINGLE DAY around the world- and the U.S. investors play a big part in there (even if its all international, we agree).

No American has to live on the street! No American has to suffer from hunger! If the profits were shared, at least, in America.
For its people. For Americans, from Americans, lol, not considering the billion of poorest people.

Instead there are scandals and scandals. People like your president steal that money from the average American customer every day, every minute, every second. Not only Enron, Enron is a fly compared to whats happening. Look at the past scandals of General Electric! And not only the scandals. Just the pickpocketing. And the investors deals. With all their financial instruments.

This is how you are betrayed. Just like me in my country. But I wont run around with a flag saying "Oh Im a big fan of my President and of the great economic state were in, and Im so proud of more and more ppl without a job, so lets get more nukes to show the rest of the world who is in charge and whos got the right to defend himself and whos got the right to use options".

I am a simple person, I just say "What? You betray me, Mr. Prime Minister? Fuck off. I wont fight for you."
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Old 02-05-2003, 01:46 PM   #103
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I don't know if this belongs here and I hope I'm not stealing by posting this but it was very clever on this boys part and I thought some of you may enjoy it.

HipHop, with the wealth in the US your absolutely right only they don't share. They just tax the shit out of use to give it the wealth 1%.

Anyway here is a poem
IRAQ a satirical poem by Cillian McSweeney, age 13

(to the tune of IF YOU'RE HAPPY
AND
YOU KNOW IT CLAP YOUR HANDS)

If you cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq.
If the markets are a drama, bomb Iraq.
If the terrorists are frisky,
Pakistan is looking shifty,
North Korea is too risky,
Bomb Iraq.

If allies are not with us, bomb Iraq.
If we think that someone's dissed us, bomb Iraq.
So to hell with more inspections,
Let's look tough for the elections,
Close your mind and take directions,
Bomb Iraq.

It's pre-emptive nonaggression, bomb Iraq.
To prevent the mass destruction, bomb Iraq.
They've got weapons we can't see,
And that's all the proof we need,
If they're not there, they must be,
Bomb Iraq.

If you never were elected, bomb Iraq.
If your mood is quite dejected, bomb Iraq.
If you think Sadam's gone mad,
With the weapons that he had,
And he tried to kill your Dad,
Bomb Iraq.

If corporate fraud is growin', bomb Iraq.
If your ties to it are showin', bomb Iraq.
If your politics are sleazy,
And hiding that aint easy,
And your manhood's getting queasy,
Bomb Iraq.

Fall in line and follow orders, bomb Iraq.
For our might knows not our borders, bomb Iraq.
Disagree? We'll call it treason,
Let's make war not love this season,
Even if we have no reason, bomb Iraq.

Clever!
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Old 02-05-2003, 02:21 PM   #104
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To bring up the US rebuilding issue I'd like to add to Mini-Fly's comments. West Germany was only rebuilt to provide a bulwark against Soviet expansion. Plus it was all done through loans that had to be paid back. Japan was largely rebuilt so the US could have military bases in the East in order to have a military presence there. No doubt there was some humanitarian concern but I doubt any but the most blindly idealistic American would suppose even a third of the effort would have been spared had it not been for the Soviet and Chinese threat.

For proof that these were the motivations of the post war US Government, I suggest one looks at the US Government's involvenment in the overthrow of democratic governments and the shoring up of dictator in the name of stopping the red tide, in the Cold War. My favourite, due to its blatant illegality was the case of Guatamala.

The Guatamalan government (which had been domocratic since 1944) in the early 1950's was in the process of redistributing land from US companies (which had been paid in full, with the price based on the companies' own tax recipts) to the landless peasants, a Scoialist policy. In 1954 the Guatamalan government was overthown by a small army of US trained exiles equiped with American weapons, flown in by American planes with American pilots. I should mention that the Secretary of State, and othe high ranking government officials all had extensive ties with United Fruit and American company who lost big in in the land redistribution.

I can name a bunch of more recent examples like the Congo in 1961( the establishment of Mobutu), Chile in 1972 (the establishment of Pinochet), the early 1980's Nicaragua (the Contra War). The US has had no problem with supporting butchering Dictators in the past such as Papa Doc, the Samozas, the Shah of Iran. I find the US's present hippocracy to be disgusting when in a different era they would be holding Saddam up as a hero.
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Old 02-05-2003, 03:45 PM   #105
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Blacksword,

I find peoples mis-representations of American policy to be disgusting. Honestly, you could say that the only reason anyone every does something nice for another person is because it benefits him/herself in some way. You could make that cynical arguement about anything.

The Marshall Plan was an enormous effort. But not only did the USA spend enormous amounts of treasure to rebuild the world after World War II, we also spent an enormous amount of blood to prevent it from being dominated by countries like Germany and Japan. After that the USA spent enormous amounts of money and sometimes blood to prevent Soviet backed Communism from taking over the planet.

Because of these efforts, there are more democracies today throughout the world than ever before in history.

HIPHOP,

I have family members in that top 1% or the "elite" and I'm sorry, but their not robbing me or anyone else!

If worried about the rich or the Elite, why don't you start with Bono who is currently worth 162 million dollars! He is apart of the largest record company on the planet, Universal.
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