"No Hablo Espanol and NEVER WILL!"

[Rono]

I think everyone should speak 2 or more langauges.and maybe ( illigal ) immigrants would be more stimulated to learn english if the would accepted as usefull people and valeuble citizens instead of second grade people who can be used as cheap labour.

 

[pax]

One thing that annoys me about this debate is that I've heard people complain, for example, if they go into McDonald's or what have you and the clerk maybe speaks not much English, or heavily accented English. And this person might grumble that they had a hard time understanding the clerk or the cabdriver or whatever. But these are the same people who would complain if this individual speaking not-so-great English wasn't out working.

The way I see it, it's better to have the Pakistani immigrant out driving the cab and constantly hearing and speaking English, and in the meantime, put up with the accent or the imperfect grammar. There is a learning curve with language, and the older people are, the harder it is.

That said, obviously, for their own good as well as convenience and safety reasons, immigrants should make every attempt to speak and understand the local language, just as if I immigrated to France or Russia or [insert other-language-speaking country here], I would find it a reasonable expectation that I should learn the language.

 

[MandyMarie]

I live in an area heavily populated by immigrants. I don't so much mind them being here, but I do wish they were required to learn English. In these parts, it is getting harder and harder to find a decent job if you don't speak Spanish. Spanish is no longer an elective, but is now required in our schools. I've noticed a lot of teachers starting to complain because they are getting so many children in their classes who do not know any English, and it creates such a barrier. I have nothing but respect for those immigrants who are learning English. There is a night school down the road where they work their ass off to learn English. I'll be starting college in the fall to get my teaching degree, and of course, Spanish will be a part of my studies, I won't be able to get a job around here without it.

 

[Muggsy]

English teaching in schools is mandatory here, even in the smallest towns, since kindergarden ... we have to learn english to get to college and get professional degrees. Even if you're not planning to search a new life out of here you gotta learn to speak english if you want a good job and deal with simple things like internet or electronic devices.

maybe, if Spain (or latin america) were the most powerful country in the world you would be the ones forced to learn a foreign language. We can't deny the cultural influence of the USA over the world and the effects of globalization. But i think it is ironic when people from other countries can build a life there while the americans only buy in "we speak english" stores when they travel. It is easy to demand the others to learn your own lenguage when you're in a priviledged position and you don't have to change to get a better life.

I do think that if you travel to another country you have to learn their language, but you can't be rude and arrogant with the foreign people. and, for the other hand, we are not talking about a bunch of spanic inmigrants who can't speak english, we are talking about big groups with a cultural and economical force that is getting bigger and bigger and you can't ignore that. both sides have to understand their relationship to aport positive things to each other.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Would you-could you do this for every immigrant? In many places there are immigrants who bring literally dozens of languages into the mix. Is it fair to the French, German, Russian, Vietnamese, Chinese, Indians, etc. to only coddle the Spanish speakers?

No, and I wouldn't expect us to just ignore the people from the other countries you mentioned.

But to solve the problem of learning multiple languages, I guess I'd say it all depends on what type of immigrants you come in contact with most often in your lifetime. I grew up in towns that had a big Mexican population-that was about the only foreign group of people in town, so I learned a bit of Spanish. If I ever wind up living in an area where I encounter another group of people with a different language, I'll try and learn the basics of that one.

I think Rono has an interesting point-trying to understand the language of the incoming people makes them feel like we're willing to try and understand their culture, and that'd probably make them more willing to try and understand ours in return. In regards to the mention of politicians trying to cater to the anti-immigration crowd in this thread-it's sad that there is a bit of an anti-immigration feeling among some people in this country to begin with. For one thing, it doesn't make sense, because where exactly do those people think their ancestors came from? They didn't just appear here out of thin air. For another, it's good to have diversity. Keeps things interesting, and can take away some of the prejudices that some people in this world may have about other cultures.

Originally posted by Seabird
Since we simply can't accomodate them all, and it's not fair to pick and choose, it is actually more convenient for society as a whole for the immigrants to learn the language of their new country other than vice versa. If you enjoy learning new languages, that's great, but it shouldn't become a necessity because of immigrants in any country.

Again, though, while a good majority of the people in this country speak English, it's not the official language. When people come here to America, they could learn English, yes, but they could also learn many other types of languages, too. In other countries, there is an official language, so that's pretty much the only one you can learn.

But even so, I just think doing that with incoming people to this country would be nice, is all. If you don't want to do that, that's your choice. I just personally would 'cause I feel it'd help a bit for me and the new person.

Angela

 

[Irvine511]

it's true -- one of the things that makes the US unique is that we have no official language. speaking english is customary, but that's all. very slowly, but inevitably, we are going to become a bilingual society, and in 50 years i would imagine a sizeable percentage of the US will be fluent in both english and spanish.

and who knows? in 500 years everyone in the US might speak Chinese.

and let's not forget that in the mid-19th century there was a movement to make German the official language of the US due to all the German-speaking immigrants in the midwest.

times change, and those who hold some kind of sentimental attachment to the English language -- in the way that, say, the French are about their (quite beautiful) language -- are missing something about the essential nature of what it means to be a citizen of the US. we are dynamic, malleable, and adapt well to change since we live in an eternal present.

that said, it's sheer stupidity NOT to learn English and reside in the US. you're simply cutting yourself off from opportunity.

though it's easy to do. i lived in Belgium for a year, and lived in an English speaking world. my french was passable, but i had an accent, so whenever i spoke french outside my anglophone world, people would respond in english. made it very hard to learn French, and not for a lack of effort on my part.

(and those Belgians are obnoxious show-offs when it comes to their cunning linguistic abilities ...)

 

[NYRangers78]

I think everyone should speak 2 or more langauges.and maybe ( illigal ) immigrants would be more stimulated to learn english if the would accepted as usefull people and valeuble citizens instead of second grade people who can be used as cheap labour.

its partly the mexicans/ immigrants fault for allowing themselves to be exploited by coming here illegally and working for a dollar an hour instead of an american who could do the job and get the right pay an hour. if employers knew they wouldnt be gettign cheap mexican/ immigrant labor for a dollar an hour or whatever they get paid, theyd surely pay more to an american or a naturalized american citizen.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

it's true -- one of the things that makes the US unique is that we have no official language. speaking english is customary, but that's all. very slowly, but inevitably, we are going to become a bilingual society, and in 50 years i would imagine a sizeable percentage of the US will be fluent in both english and spanish.

and who knows? in 500 years everyone in the US might speak Chinese.

and let's not forget that in the mid-19th century there was a movement to make German the official language of the US due to all the German-speaking immigrants in the midwest.

times change, and those who hold some kind of sentimental attachment to the English language -- in the way that, say, the French are about their (quite beautiful) language -- are missing something about the essential nature of what it means to be a citizen of the US. we are dynamic, malleable, and adapt well to change since we live in an eternal present.

Exactly .

that said, it's sheer stupidity NOT to learn English and reside in the US. you're simply cutting yourself off from opportunity.

Yeah. It definitely would be beneficial.

Angela

 

[sharky]

Imagine if you lived in Canada and had to be fluent in french and english? that being said, I think Rono is right. Everyone student in this country should be required to learn a language in school and should be required to learn a language in college. I was able to skip out of college french because I took four years of it in high school and I miss it now. Wish I could speak more than just the basics.

 

[Bono's shades]

its partly the mexicans/ immigrants fault for allowing themselves to be exploited by coming here illegally and working for a dollar an hour instead of an american who could do the job and get the right pay an hour. if employers knew they wouldnt be gettign cheap mexican/ immigrant labor for a dollar an hour or whatever they get paid, theyd surely pay more to an american or a naturalized american citizen.

Don't you have it backwards? Isn't it more the employer's fault for exploiting people who are willing to work for less simply because as low as the wages are, they are still better than what they were making back in their home country?

 

[Seabird]

Don't you have it backwards? Isn't it more the employer's fault for exploiting people who are willing to work for less simply because as low as the wages are, they are still better than what they were making back in their home country?

Those employers are exploiting both the immigrants and the American worker who could have made more money at the job if it was not given to an illegal alien. While the wage the immigrant is making may be higher than what he got at home, with the American cost of living, he can't live on it in America. That's why so many illegals move in together and live in large groups.

 

[anitram]

Imagine if you lived in Canada and had to be fluent in french and english?

Most people in Canada don't speak any kind of workable French.

 

[Bono's shades]

Those employers are exploiting both the immigrants and the American worker who could have made more money at the job if it was not given to an illegal alien. While the wage the immigrant is making may be higher than what he got at home, with the American cost of living, he can't live on it in America. That's why so many illegals move in together and live in large groups.

Very true - everyone loses in this situation except the employers.

 

[Ft. Worth Frog]

One would have to take several consecutive years of a foreign language in school to learn it. I know dozens of people who have taken, French, Spanish, German, etc. for a couple of years but can now barely say "Where is the bathroom." One must be put in a situation where speaking the language is vital to survival in order to maintain fluency.

 

[lmjhitman]

Most people in Canada don't speak any kind of workable French.

i don't. but i'm from alberta, so

although i wish i did. being able to speak french fluently is highly sought after in many job markets here in alberta, and not just in government.

 

[melon]

I think everyone in the U.S. should be forced to learn English.

On the other hand, most first-generation immigrants never successfully integrate into society. Some of the people I went to HS had grandparents who were first-generation immigrants and none of them spoke more than a few words of English. By the third generation, however, we have kids who are fully bilingual, and, more importantly, know English perfectly.

I think we generally need to keep things in perspective. Anti-immigrant rants are an American past-time that's about as old as America itself; and in every and all instances, the sky doesn't fall and America gets better. Future generations assimilate, while carrying on their cultural traditions. After all, the Irish-Italian Boston is nothing like the "Boston" of 150 years ago. But you know what? You can't stop change.

Melon

 

[Miggy D]

I think a person's decision whether or not to learn a foreign language is their decision alone. I don't think the French should be forced to learn English in school and neither do I think that a person should be forced to learn Spanish if they don't want to. In my opinion, the burden is on the immigrant, not the native. If I were to go to France and demand everyone learn English so that I could communicate I would be written off as an arrogant, ignorant American. Yet there seems to be a prevailing line of thought within the liberal American community that says immigrants (especially those beneath our southern borders) shouldn't be required to learn English if they don't want to, and that the state should accomodate this unwillingness to adapt.

This is hogwash, I say. Hogwash!

Learning a new language is hard, and I believe there should be state-funded language classes for new immigrants from all countries, especially the Latin ones (since so many immigrate from these places). We should make it easier for immigrants to learn English so that they may better integrate into American society.

-Miggy

 

[verte76]

I'm a linguistic klutz. I studied French in school but wasn't good at it. I'm just glad my first, and only language, is the language I need.

 

[NYRangers78]

Don't you have it backwards? Isn't it more the employer's fault for exploiting people who are willing to work for less simply because as low as the wages are, they are still better than what they were making back in their home country?

sure a lot of it is the employer, but thats only because they know they can get mexicans/ illegal immigrants on the cheap. so it is partly the employer, and partly the mexicans/illegal immigrants. now if there was some way that mexicans/illegal immigrants could stand together and demand more money, they wouldnt be treated the way they are. but they cant because they are illegal and arent entitled to rights that american citizens have. i have the utmost respect for mexicans. they work very hard and get treated like dirt but for the most part, respect america and love being here.

 

[MandyMarie]

Down here a good percentage of the migrant workers don't live so bad. They work in the fields or the hog/chicken/turkey houses, and in turn they get paid, + rent-free/nearly rent-free housing, free electric, free medical insurance, and food stamps.

I'm not complaining, because they are doing the shitty work that nobody else wants to do, I just think it's fair to ask them to learn the national language. I wouldn't move to another country and expect everyone to cater to me and my own language, it's common sense and courtesy to learn the national language. MO anyways.

 

[melon]

I'm not complaining, because they are doing the shitty work that nobody else wants to do, I just think it's fair to ask them to learn the national language. I wouldn't move to another country and expect everyone to cater to me and my own language, it's common sense and courtesy to learn the national language. MO anyways.

Again, first generation immigrants rarely have a good grasp of English. In the late 19th-early 20th century, America bitched about all the "trash" that came from Europe that didn't know English.

Rather than glaringly looking at first generation Mexican immigrants, look at the Mexican immigrants that have been here for a generation or two. Their children, inevitably, are very American, even if their parents or grandparents aren't.

Melon

 

[Bonofire]

I was under the impression that speaking and reading English was a requirement for US citizenship?

 

[deep]

Spanish political ads kick off Bloomberg TV campaign

ASSOCIATED PRESS

Republican Mayor Michael Bloomberg is targeting Latino voters with the first television advertisements of his re-election campaign, which feature him speaking entirely in Spanish.

The ads unveiled Tuesday begin a bilingual blitz expected to continue for several days, highlighting themes like the city's reviving economy, safe streets and better schools. Ads in English are scheduled for later this week.

The two Spanish spots, 30 and 60 seconds long, show uplifting city scenes like children on playgrounds and construction workers mixed with urban images of skyscrapers and police officers with handcuffs. Bloomberg, who has a Spanish tutor, trades lines with the female voiceover.

 

[WinnieThePoo]

I was under the impression that speaking and reading English was a requirement for US citizenship?

yes , except elders ( late refugees etc )

 

[Seabird]

So if speaking English is a prerequisite for citizenship, and you have to be a citizen to vote, why run ads in Spanish? Did they cheat on their test and not really learn English? I have always thought that putting things in Spanish did not help the immigrants because it discourages them from bothering to learn English. That is not helpful in the long run to them or anyone else.

 

[anitram]

Well, what is the citizenship test like?

In Canada, you get a booklet with all the facts and then it's multiple choice, so anybody can memorize names and dates and not really have a working grasp of the language.

 

[elevation2u]

So if speaking English is a prerequisite for citizenship, and you have to be a citizen to vote, why run ads in Spanish? Did they cheat on their test and not really learn English? I have always thought that putting things in Spanish did not help the immigrants because it discourages them from bothering to learn English. That is not helpful in the long run to them or anyone else.

there is more to life than conforming to the language of the country, these people are trying to make an honest living to support their family and give their children a better life while at the same time maintaining their culture, which is not as easy as it appears to be. for the most parts the adults only learn enough english to get by...
and what exactly is wrong with that? what may seem helpful to someone else ..such as learning english... isnt the most helpful thing for another, they have more things to worry about in their household.. such as trying to have communication with their kids who sometimes become too americanized and in that process become distanced from their parents. ive seen it happen many times, kids pick up on the mentality of looking down at their parents for not speaking good english and for being so tied to their culture because the rest of society makes comments without noticing how hurtful they truly are to others.

 

[echo0001]

Random thoughts and comments after reading this thread:

Historic Amercian Signs Once Seen in US Business Establishments:
No Irish Need Apply
No Dogs or Indians Allowed
Whites Only

As a percentage of any population, people who are truly fluent in more than one language are rare.

It is very difficult for the average person to become fluent in a second language as an adult.

Many people try for years to acquire a second language, and never attain any real facility with that second langauge.

We've probably all heard of people who speak six languages, but most of us don't have that kind of lingual talent. You can't expect all immigrants to automatically develop a knack for languages that most people just don't have.

Instead of expecting the immigrants to suddenly become lingual geniuses, why don't you expect yourself to become one when you encounter an immigrant?

It's true that many first generation immigrants do not "assimilate" (what a buttsucking concept that is). One of the basic causes of that fact is that (repeating myself here) it is not easy to become fluent in a second language as an adult.

This is THE Melting Pot, right? Aren't most Americans proud of the fact? Then why do so many Americans have a major bug up their ass about this? My guess is that the immigrant's inability to speak accomplished English inconviences the poor, long suffering American.

Yeah, it's probably a good idea to make an attempt to learn the most common language of the country you happen to be residing in....but not easy to become fluent (see above.) Ever take five seconds to consider the frustration of a 40 yr. old Mexican immigrant who's been living in this country for 5 or 6 years, and who is an average person (IQ 100, not 150), and who has been trying all that time to learn good English, and still hasn't been able to become fluent? Standing there trying to make yourself understood by ego-stuffed American who wishes that you'd "either learn the language or go back where you came from"?

Ever take a long look at a good English Dictionary? Ever notice how many words have been absorbed from other languages? So much for the purity of English.......

Or should we all go back to speaking the Old English of Chaucer? Would that be pure enough? And if we did, where goeth pizza, burrito, deja vu, coup d' etat?

The U.S. has no official language, just as it has no official religion, official costume, or official way to lace your sneakers. I hope it stays that way.

And I hope that America will eventually learn from it's past, and Americans will stop perpetrating the kind of behavior our grandchildren will get to be ashamed of when they read about it in the history books.

End of rant.
For now.

 

[Seabird]

there is more to life than conforming to the language of the country, these people are trying to make an honest living to support their family and give their children a better life while at the same time maintaining their culture, which is not as easy as it appears to be. for the most parts the adults only learn enough english to get by...
and what exactly is wrong with that? what may seem helpful to someone else ..such as learning english... isnt the most helpful thing for another, they have more things to worry about in their household.. such as trying to have communication with their kids who sometimes become too americanized and in that process become distanced from their parents. ive seen it happen many times, kids pick up on the mentality of looking down at their parents for not speaking good english and for being so tied to their culture because the rest of society makes comments without noticing how hurtful they truly are to others.

Because it's an unecessarily hardship on society as a whole. I have been in businesses where Spanish had so taken over I couldn't get anyone to understand me. Some jobs, as some have mentioned, now require bosses to learn Spanish. You can't even get any customer service on the phone, or use an ATM, without having to deal with "Espanol" options. It wasn't like this until very recently. These immigrants, most of them illegal, have succeeded in forcing their language on the mainstream America. No other ethnic group in the history of this nation has ever asked American citizens to conform for them. Immigrants are welcome, yes, but when in Rome, do as the Romans do. If I moved to Rome, I'd have to learn Italian. If an Italian moved to Sweden, she'd learn Swedish. It's just some Hispanics who expect everyone to cave in and make everything easier for them.

This is not fair to natural born US citizens, and it's really not fair to immigrants from all other countries who do not get this special treatment. In Chinese resturants I frequent, the employees are all bilingual, even children as young as 10! They can speak to the customers in perfect English, then turn around and talk to each other in their native language. If they can do it, why can't the Hispanics?

It isn't helping the immigrants to learn English as long as we have options in Espanol. This discourages them from trying to learn English, because they don't have to. That will turn out to be a negative thing for them.

This is THE Melting Pot, right?

Indeed it is, and what does the term "melting" mean? It refers to people from all over the world blending in and becoming one with us. That's not happening if the blending isn't happening because some insist on retaining their own language and ways. It's not right for someone to come to a country and expect to take advantage of all the benefits without its obligations.* This goes for any immigrant in any nation, not just Hispanics in the US.

*{Illegals pay no taxes either, since their crooked employer paying them a below minimum wage salary can't turn them in on his taxes or the IRS would catch him and the illegals}

 

[Angela Harlem]

Perhaps a lot of English speaking countries need to stop looking at people as 'immigrants' and more as Americans or Australians or whatever is applicable. Personally, if I wanted to live in France, I'd want to try damned hard to learn the language because I'd want to fit in. There would never be any denying my Aussieness, I'd be tied to those roots until I die. But becoming a citizen of France, I'd want to be (living) French. I see people who might or might not have been born here always referred to as immigrant. All because they might be of obvious Lebanese descent, have a thick accent due to their families and a lot of their friends influencing how they pronunciate words. But many just dont consider them Australian now. And by calling them Australian now is not to write off where they came from, and their heritage and roots, but it is the acceptance that they now live here and want to be Australian. We still call them Lebs or immigrants. I dont disagree with the above posts that language needs to be learned, but I do think the problem is two-fold.

I worked in a team once with...7 people. 2 of us were the Skippys, and the other 5 ladies were Indian. They were nice ladies, my friend and I thought we all got on well with them. When talking about work, we never had language barriers as they spoke carefully and always ensured we knew what they were talking about. We thought everything was fine. One day we got an email from the manager saying "I want to do lunch with the 2 of you to discuss some things". It seemed there was a problem with communication in general. Our manager on either their behalf, or hers, had felt out team had no unity. I blurted out that one way to help this was to send us on a crash course in Hindi. She stared at me dumbfounded and I explained we actually had no problem with them, working was fine, but in general communication, they spoke only in Hindi, naturally. We'd not approach them if they were ever talking amongst themselves, while we had no clue what they were saying, we had no way of knowing if we'd be interrupting something about work or not. One of them, who we weren't too sure of how normally friendly she was, made us laugh often as she'd lower her voice if we walked past when she was on the phone. We wanted to tap her on the shoulder and remind her she could yell if she wanted - we still wouldn't understand. Anyway, the point of this is, it highlights the problem of language new arrivals in recent generations face. We let them be, and they kept to themselves in social conversation. We all erred. They and us. We didn't have a problem with it, and assumed they didn't necessarily, but none of us made attempts to break that cycle. I dont think society makes enough effort individually, but not always from racism or unwillingness.