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Old 10-30-2006, 07:11 PM   #346
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Originally posted by AEON



Irvine, you seem to agree that you are broken, but being gay is not part of the broken part. My question to you then is – how do you know this? I mean, until Christ was within my heart, there was a ton of things about myself that were suddenly apparent. It was not until the light of Christ shined and exposed my darkest thoughts did I even know that many of them existed. It is part of the process. Does that make sense? Even if you don’t agree?


no, it doesn't.

my homosexuality has given me my first real, adult, love relationship. it is a source of joy. it is no more wrong to me than your heterosexuality is to you.

can i ask you this question: how do you know that Christ is in your heart? what if you're just deluding yourself because it feels good?
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Old 10-30-2006, 07:13 PM   #347
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Originally posted by INDY500


I think AEON knows, as I do, that the views expressed in this forum do not represent the views of the majority of Americans. Or even close to it for that matter.

Eight states have ballot initiatives next week which will define marriage as between one man and one woman and outlaw marriage between same-sex couples.

My guess is they all will pass.


does that make you feel good or, better, validated?

if it were 1967, and eight states had bans on interracial marriage pending, do you think it would have passed?

the public has always, always lagged behind when it comes to civil rights. this is why we have courts, btw.
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Old 10-30-2006, 07:13 PM   #348
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Originally posted by INDY500


I think AEON knows, as I do, that the views expressed in this forum do not represent the views of the majority of Americans. Or even close to it for that matter.

Eight states have ballot initiatives next week which will define marriage as between one man and one woman and outlaw marriage between same-sex couples.

My guess is they all will pass.
You may be right, but I'm not really sure if that should be something one finds comfort in, regardless of where one stands on the issue. I mean, believe what you believe because it is what you believe, you know?

But I personally wouldn't find comfort and put trust in many of the laws this government passes. There have been loads of discriminating laws passed by this government, making it legal to deny certain peoples of rights.

Martha already pointed out the separate but equal stuff. Also, I'd like to point out that when the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed, one of the more prominent reasons for it was (and this was layed out in the opinion of the court) to not appear as weak to the communist nations during the cold war. I'm not kidding. So...just because the gov't passes laws, doesn't always mean they have our best interest in mind.
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Old 10-30-2006, 07:14 PM   #349
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


But that is really the crux of the whole debate, isn't it?

Some people do not accept that you were born gay.
Some people do accept it.
To me the crux is....that we are ALL BROKEN....Sadly, my brokeness...can easily be hidden from others. I can harbor sinful desires inside of myself, and it is hidden from all. My brokenness can cause others great pain, be it a sarcastic remark, or walking by a homeless person asking for change without even batting an eye. My brokenness, while hidden from society, can do damage, can cause pain.

Somehow, it seems sinful to me that we so easily as Christians, look to identify the sin that we perceive in others and in the case of homosexuality, focus on something that does not hurt anyone, even though there are enough other sins that cause others pain.
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Old 10-30-2006, 07:16 PM   #350
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500


I think AEON knows, as I do, that the views expressed in this forum do not represent the views of the majority of Americans. Or even close to it for that matter.

Eight states have ballot initiatives next week which will define marriage as between one man and one woman and outlaw marriage between same-sex couples.

My guess is they all will pass.

oh, and a majority of Americans support civil unions.

including our president.
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Old 10-30-2006, 07:19 PM   #351
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Originally posted by redhotswami

Martha already pointed out the separate but equal stuff. Also, I'd like to point out that when the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed, one of the more prominent reasons for it was (and this was layed out in the opinion of the court) to not appear as weak to the communist nations during the cold war. I'm not kidding. So...just because the gov't passes laws, doesn't always mean they have our best interest in mind.


and what did LBJ say after it's passing?

that democrats have lost The South for a generation.

and it's been longer than that.
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Old 10-30-2006, 07:24 PM   #352
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


how do you know that Christ is in your heart? what if you're just deluding yourself because it feels good?
Well, this is where faith comes in. I have faith that He's present. His promise to me is that He will remain present my enire life here on earth and with me onto the next world.

I would like to clarify - I think there is a difference between joy and pleasure. Joy is independent of circumstance, pleasure is a response to stimuli.


Christianity usually brings more pain than pleasure. For one thing, I know that my heart breaks far more easily than it used to. It breaks everytime I allow myself to get into this debate because I know it stirs up a ton of feelings.
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Old 10-30-2006, 07:24 PM   #353
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Why is it that status quo and mob rule hold so much power for you,
A rather cynical view of democracy and "the will of the people" don't ya think?
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Old 10-30-2006, 07:28 PM   #354
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Originally posted by INDY500


A rather cynical view of democracy and "the will of the people" don't ya think?
You haven't bothered to address my point.

But you rarely do.
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Old 10-30-2006, 07:43 PM   #355
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Originally posted by INDY500


A rather cynical view of democracy and "the will of the people" don't ya think?
Is that what I said or asked? Didn't think so, but go ahead and twist all you want.
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Old 10-30-2006, 07:48 PM   #356
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Originally posted by INDY500


A rather cynical view of democracy and "the will of the people" don't ya think?


why is the south so full of bleedin' racists that they haven't elected an African-American senator since RECONSTRUCTION!?!!?

look at the LBJ quote. that speaks volumes.
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Old 10-30-2006, 08:42 PM   #357
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Originally posted by martha


Yep. Separate but equal was accepted by a majority of Americans until 1956 (and even then for a long time after). It did take some Supreme Court "activism" to eleminate it from our education system. I look forward to that happening again.

Or, maybe young people will finally start voting and let their voices count.
It was "activist courts" that in 1883 and 1896, shamefully gutted the 14th Amendment (equal protection) and the Civil Rights Act of 1875 (barring discrimination) giving free reign to Jim Crow laws and legal discrimination. It took Brown v. Board of Education to overturn that 1896 Decision and the 1964 Civil Rights Act to abolish Jim crow laws.
The great cause of the Civil Rights Movement was to restore to black Americans that which had been promised after reconstruction & the overturning of Dred Scott--and then TAKEN AWAY.
Homosexuals have not been deprived of same right to marry as any other citizen -- only of the right to redefine marriage to fit their preferences.

Same-sex marriage is not a civil rights issue.
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Old 10-30-2006, 09:12 PM   #358
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Homosexuals have not been deprived of same right to marry as any other citizen -- only of the right to redefine marriage to fit their preferences.
Once again you'll get the

They haven't been deprived the right to marry?
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Old 10-30-2006, 09:14 PM   #359
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Coming in late on this thread, but believe it or not I did read the whole thing...

Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

Same-sex marriage is not a civil rights issue.
Of course it is...the government is unilaterally denying a segment of the population (homosexuals) the right to marry. The whole point of the "legal definition" votes is to pull a legal end-around on this. If states can legally define marriage as a union between a man & woman then, hey, no infringement on civil rights. Any man can marry any woman, no discrimination...gay men can marry women if they want, lesbians can marry men if they want to, etc.

I guess what I'd like to ask those who oppose gay marriage is "why?" Because I don't honestly see how 2 men or 2 women marrying has an effect on anyone else. Basically I'd like to see an argument against it made without using God/Christianity/Scripture, and without resorting to "slippery slope" arguments.
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Old 10-30-2006, 09:19 PM   #360
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

Same-sex marriage is not a civil rights issue.
Yes it is.

And other countries and common law systems have seen and interpreted it as such. Don't worry, yours will catch up. It'll be grand.
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