New Jersey embraces civil rights for all couples

[80sU2isBest]

but how i was designed by God to love isn't how i'm broken.

But that is really the crux of the whole debate, isn't it?

Some people do not accept that you were born gay.
Some people do accept it.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I don't know.

What do you mean by that? I'm honestly not trying to give you a hard time, I just don't know exactly what you mean by that.

And heterosexual sinning in marriage is blatantly obvious to me- it's obvious to any and all who have suffered the effects of it in whatever way. Just for starters.

 

[Irvine511]

But that is really the crux of the whole debate, isn't it?

Some people do not accept that you were born gay.
Some people do accept it.

and those that don't accept it, just how would they know unless they themselves were gay? and even then, how could they speak for other gay people?

you are right, that is the crux of the debate. and that is why it is so important to anti-gay groups to cling onto anyone who says that they were able to "change" their sexual orientation, for that would show that it is not immutable, and therefore a "choice."

 

[BVS]

I don't know.

I appreciate the honesty.

But this is exactly why and where your stance, and everyone on your side, loses all credibility and when it comes down to it has not a leg to stand on. This is exactly why so many on the opposing side says it honestly comes down to bigotry, you leave the door wide open for them.

 

[redhotswami]

But that is really the crux of the whole debate, isn't it?

Some people do not accept that you were born gay.
Some people do accept it.

You're absolutely right! I really think that is what it all boils down to.

Personally though, I'm not too comfortable with telling someone that he/she is not who he/she says that he/she is. I don't think I phrased that correctly, but the words escape me at the moment. Let me use an example:

I know myself better than anyone else. I know that I am heterosexual. I know I was born this way. However if somebody came up to me and said that I was NOT born heterosexual, I'd be really confused, because I know who I am.

But I'd also like to mention the psychological researchers. Now, sorry to throw my occupation experience into the discussion, but I have read LOADS of research on sexual identity development, with traditional aged undergraduate college students as the sample. EVERYTHING I have found says that sexual orientation is exactly what it says, ORIENTATION. People are born that way, it is not a choice. The APA has even stated so, and there are theories backing this up.

 

[martha]

The APA has even stated so, and there are theories backing this up.

Along with brain research.

 

[Irvine511]

but doesn't it come down to this: how can anal sex be holy?

i'm serious.

all these religious objections seem to be to be elaborate defenses of the "ick" factor that kicks in for many heterosexuals whenever two men kiss each other. that it's gross. unseamly. an abomination. sinful. and it might seem so to some heterosexuals. and that's fine. there are heterosexual acts that i find unseamly. and gross. but i'd never, then, make the leap to "abomination" and/or "sinful."

can we get to the point where accept this:

as no more, and no less, "icky" or "sinful" as this:

(and let's put aside the fact that men and women have anal sex)

 

[BVS]

Since I believe homosexual behavior a sin

What's homosexual "behavior"?

 

[AEON]

I appreciate the honesty.

But this is exactly why and where your stance, and everyone on your side, loses all credibility and when it comes down to it has not a leg to stand on. This is exactly why so many on the opposing side says it honestly comes down to bigotry, you leave the door wide open for them.

When I say "I don't know" I am actually saying that I can't offer an adequate answer. I posted in another thread about God’s wisdom is not always the same as our wisdom. I’ve gone most of my life not trusting God, and I can assure, doing that didn’t work out too well for me.

We will not always know all of the reasons for why God forbids certain things and allows others. Sometimes it’s obvious, other times—it’s not so obvious. Philosophies, psychology, sociology all have limits; and they are certainly limited in the understanding between God and His creation.
Many here have made some compelling arguments. But as strong as they are, none of them have convinced me not to trust what I think God has said on the issue.

The latest “evidence” regarding the causes of homosexuality the world musters up seems to change faster than Super Bowl champions. Ultimately, it doesn’t even matter if someone is born gay or not – it is the behavior that is the sin (according the Bible; and I concur). There is another thread where we all go into quite a bit, probably no need to travel that road again. Some interpret the Bible’s stance against homosexuality different than conservative Christians – and we can discuss that again if we must.

 

[AEON]

and those that don't accept it, just how would they know unless they themselves were gay? and even then, how could they speak for other gay people?

you are right, that is the crux of the debate. and that is why it is so important to anti-gay groups to cling onto anyone who says that they were able to "change" their sexual orientation, for that would show that it is not immutable, and therefore a "choice."

Irvine, you seem to agree that you are broken, but being gay is not part of the broken part. My question to you then is – how do you know this? I mean, until Christ was within my heart, there was a ton of things about myself that were suddenly apparent. It was not until the light of Christ shined and exposed my darkest thoughts did I even know that many of them existed. It is part of the process. Does that make sense? Even if you don’t agree?

 

[INDY500]

maybe you could help out your conservative Christian brothers?

i do feel for AEON, as he's obviously taking an upopular stance, and he is doing his best to defend it.

I think AEON knows, as I do, that the views expressed in this forum do not represent the views of the majority of Americans. Or even close to it for that matter.

Eight states have ballot initiatives next week which will define marriage as between one man and one woman and outlaw marriage between same-sex couples.

My guess is they all will pass.

 

[BVS]

When I say "I don't know" I am actually saying that I can't offer an adequate answer. I posted in another thread about God’s wisdom is not always the same as our wisdom. I’ve gone most of my life not trusting God, and I can assure, doing that didn’t work out too well for me.

We will not always know all of the reasons for why God forbids certain things and allows others. Sometimes it’s obvious, other times—it’s not so obvious. Philosophies, psychology, sociology all have limits; and they are certainly limited in the understanding between God and His creation.
Many here have made some compelling arguments. But as strong as they are, none of them have convinced me not to trust what I think God has said on the issue.

But name one other "sin" that doesn't make sense? Every other commandment can be given a pretty logical reason, why is this the only one you can't explain?

Ultimately, it doesn’t even matter if someone is born gay or not – it is the behavior that is the sin (according the Bible; and I concur).

But here you are with the "behavior" again, what is homosexual "behavior"? I don't ever remember any scripture talking about behavior.

 

[BVS]

I think AEON knows, as I do, that the views expressed in this forum do not represent the views of the majority of Americans. Or even close to it for that matter.

Eight states have ballot initiatives next week which will define marriage as between one man and one woman and outlaw marriage between same-sex couples.

My guess is they all will pass.

Why is it that status quo and mob rule hold so much power for you, it's obvious both have been completely wrong so many times in the past?

 

[martha]

I think AEON knows, as I do, that the views expressed in this forum do not represent the views of the majority of Americans. Or even close to it for that matter.

Eight states have ballot initiatives next week which will define marriage as between one man and one woman and outlaw marriage between same-sex couples.

My guess is they all will pass.

Yep. Separate but equal was accepted by a majority of Americans until 1956 (and even then for a long time after). It did take some Supreme Court "activism" to eleminate it from our education system. I look forward to that happening again.

Or, maybe young people will finally start voting and let their voices count.

 

[Irvine511]

The latest “evidence” regarding the causes of homosexuality the world musters up seems to change faster than Super Bowl champions.

homosexuality was removed from the APA list of disorders since the early 1970s and has remained off the list ever since.

 

[Irvine511]

Irvine, you seem to agree that you are broken, but being gay is not part of the broken part. My question to you then is – how do you know this? I mean, until Christ was within my heart, there was a ton of things about myself that were suddenly apparent. It was not until the light of Christ shined and exposed my darkest thoughts did I even know that many of them existed. It is part of the process. Does that make sense? Even if you don’t agree?

no, it doesn't.

my homosexuality has given me my first real, adult, love relationship. it is a source of joy. it is no more wrong to me than your heterosexuality is to you.

can i ask you this question: how do you know that Christ is in your heart? what if you're just deluding yourself because it feels good?

 

[Irvine511]

I think AEON knows, as I do, that the views expressed in this forum do not represent the views of the majority of Americans. Or even close to it for that matter.

Eight states have ballot initiatives next week which will define marriage as between one man and one woman and outlaw marriage between same-sex couples.

My guess is they all will pass.

does that make you feel good or, better, validated?

if it were 1967, and eight states had bans on interracial marriage pending, do you think it would have passed?

the public has always, always lagged behind when it comes to civil rights. this is why we have courts, btw.

 

[redhotswami]

I think AEON knows, as I do, that the views expressed in this forum do not represent the views of the majority of Americans. Or even close to it for that matter.

Eight states have ballot initiatives next week which will define marriage as between one man and one woman and outlaw marriage between same-sex couples.

My guess is they all will pass.

You may be right, but I'm not really sure if that should be something one finds comfort in, regardless of where one stands on the issue. I mean, believe what you believe because it is what you believe, you know?

But I personally wouldn't find comfort and put trust in many of the laws this government passes. There have been loads of discriminating laws passed by this government, making it legal to deny certain peoples of rights.

Martha already pointed out the separate but equal stuff. Also, I'd like to point out that when the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed, one of the more prominent reasons for it was (and this was layed out in the opinion of the court) to not appear as weak to the communist nations during the cold war. I'm not kidding. So...just because the gov't passes laws, doesn't always mean they have our best interest in mind.

 

[Dreadsox]

But that is really the crux of the whole debate, isn't it?

Some people do not accept that you were born gay.
Some people do accept it.

To me the crux is....that we are ALL BROKEN....Sadly, my brokeness...can easily be hidden from others. I can harbor sinful desires inside of myself, and it is hidden from all. My brokenness can cause others great pain, be it a sarcastic remark, or walking by a homeless person asking for change without even batting an eye. My brokenness, while hidden from society, can do damage, can cause pain.

Somehow, it seems sinful to me that we so easily as Christians, look to identify the sin that we perceive in others and in the case of homosexuality, focus on something that does not hurt anyone, even though there are enough other sins that cause others pain.

 

[Irvine511]

I think AEON knows, as I do, that the views expressed in this forum do not represent the views of the majority of Americans. Or even close to it for that matter.

Eight states have ballot initiatives next week which will define marriage as between one man and one woman and outlaw marriage between same-sex couples.

My guess is they all will pass.

oh, and a majority of Americans support civil unions.

including our president.

 

[Irvine511]

Martha already pointed out the separate but equal stuff. Also, I'd like to point out that when the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed, one of the more prominent reasons for it was (and this was layed out in the opinion of the court) to not appear as weak to the communist nations during the cold war. I'm not kidding. So...just because the gov't passes laws, doesn't always mean they have our best interest in mind.

and what did LBJ say after it's passing?

that democrats have lost The South for a generation.

and it's been longer than that.

 

[AEON]

how do you know that Christ is in your heart? what if you're just deluding yourself because it feels good?

Well, this is where faith comes in. I have faith that He's present. His promise to me is that He will remain present my enire life here on earth and with me onto the next world.

I would like to clarify - I think there is a difference between joy and pleasure. Joy is independent of circumstance, pleasure is a response to stimuli.


Christianity usually brings more pain than pleasure. For one thing, I know that my heart breaks far more easily than it used to. It breaks everytime I allow myself to get into this debate because I know it stirs up a ton of feelings.

 

[INDY500]

Why is it that status quo and mob rule hold so much power for you,

A rather cynical view of democracy and "the will of the people" don't ya think?

 

[martha]

A rather cynical view of democracy and "the will of the people" don't ya think?

You haven't bothered to address my point.

But you rarely do.

 

[BVS]

A rather cynical view of democracy and "the will of the people" don't ya think?

Is that what I said or asked? Didn't think so, but go ahead and twist all you want.

 

[Irvine511]

A rather cynical view of democracy and "the will of the people" don't ya think?

why is the south so full of bleedin' racists that they haven't elected an African-American senator since RECONSTRUCTION!?!!?

look at the LBJ quote. that speaks volumes.

 

[INDY500]

Yep. Separate but equal was accepted by a majority of Americans until 1956 (and even then for a long time after). It did take some Supreme Court "activism" to eleminate it from our education system. I look forward to that happening again.

Or, maybe young people will finally start voting and let their voices count.

It was "activist courts" that in 1883 and 1896, shamefully gutted the 14th Amendment (equal protection) and the Civil Rights Act of 1875 (barring discrimination) giving free reign to Jim Crow laws and legal discrimination. It took Brown v. Board of Education to overturn that 1896 Decision and the 1964 Civil Rights Act to abolish Jim crow laws.
The great cause of the Civil Rights Movement was to restore to black Americans that which had been promised after reconstruction & the overturning of Dred Scott--and then TAKEN AWAY.
Homosexuals have not been deprived of same right to marry as any other citizen -- only of the right to redefine marriage to fit their preferences.

Same-sex marriage is not a civil rights issue.

 

[BVS]

Homosexuals have not been deprived of same right to marry as any other citizen -- only of the right to redefine marriage to fit their preferences.

Once again you'll get the

They haven't been deprived the right to marry?

 

[CTU2fan]

Coming in late on this thread, but believe it or not I did read the whole thing...

Same-sex marriage is not a civil rights issue.

Of course it is...the government is unilaterally denying a segment of the population (homosexuals) the right to marry. The whole point of the "legal definition" votes is to pull a legal end-around on this. If states can legally define marriage as a union between a man & woman then, hey, no infringement on civil rights. Any man can marry any woman, no discrimination...gay men can marry women if they want, lesbians can marry men if they want to, etc.

I guess what I'd like to ask those who oppose gay marriage is "why?" Because I don't honestly see how 2 men or 2 women marrying has an effect on anyone else. Basically I'd like to see an argument against it made without using God/Christianity/Scripture, and without resorting to "slippery slope" arguments.

 

[anitram]

Same-sex marriage is not a civil rights issue.

Yes it is.

And other countries and common law systems have seen and interpreted it as such. Don't worry, yours will catch up. It'll be grand.