"My god is true, your god is false"

[coemgen]

i agree that a belief in literal creationism is far less widespread than a belief that homosexuality is condemned in the Bible.

i think the better question is to wonder why the obession with a "sin" that doesn't even make the top 10, let alone more than a few highly debatable passing mentions. the question is why many evangelical protestant politicized -- the Falwell people -- have made this one of the centerpieces of their social political platform, right along with pro-life/anti-choice.

why the obsession with a sexual orientation that harms absolutely no one?

why?

Honestly, I think a lot of it is political. That's why I can't stand the religious right -- they've hijacked the faith and claim to speak for it. It's not Christian to respond to homosexuality as they have, and it saddens me that you and others may be turned off to the faith because of that misrepresentation. I've even been caught up in that mentality as I seek to understand and grow as a Christian.

What I've gotten back to is simply the Gospel. It all starts and ends with Christ. God's love in human flesh who died, rose again, and through his blood allows us the opportunity to be forgiven of our "crimes against God" and seen as pure. You need him, whether homosexuality is a sin or not, I need him for all my junk, everyone does. We can all be covered by his grace as his grace is extended to all of us.

That's where any Christian should begin and end.

 

[popsadie]

I can disagree and still love. There is a difference between tolerance as the world defines it and respect. Personally, I don't base my identity on my orientation, and if someone disagreed with my orientation, I would hope they still could respect me.

 

[Irvine511]

I can disagree and still love. There is a difference between tolerance as the world defines it and respect. Personally, I don't base my identity on my orientation, and if someone disagreed with my orientation, I would hope they still could respect me.

it's impossible to "disagree" with homosexuality, or any sexual orientation. it's like disagreeing with being left-handed or having red hair. it's logically absurd.

 

[coemgen]

I was being somewhat tongue in cheek, you often forget I'm a believer myself, so who's putting who in a box?

My point is you'll never convince those that ignore science and logic.

There have been many believers in here who have talked in depth about interpretation Dreadsox, Ormus(Melon), myself and others often to be ignored.

Sometimes I'm bad at reading tongue and cheek comments for what they are. I'm sorry I misunderstood you.

As far as your efforts to help Christians see the other side, use me as evidence. I can honestly say that FYM has helped me approach the Bible with more humility and to seek a more genuine understanding of other's views. Where I do defend the Bible, I at least have more respect for people and their views.

 

[popsadie]

I disagree with it being natural. This is the turning point of our conversation. I hold to the scriptural views of it stated in the new testament over scientific findings. Still, I am not going to use it to hate you or to vote for things that would harm you. I interpret science in light of scripture and not the other way around. I realize the interpretation issues about homosexuality...especially in the OT...but happen to believe Paul when it comes to homosexuality. Sorry if you see it as absurd.

 

[BVS]

I can disagree and still love. There is a difference between tolerance as the world defines it and respect. Personally, I don't base my identity on my orientation, and if someone disagreed with my orientation, I would hope they still could respect me.

But you are doing more than purely disagreeing with an opinion. You are telling them their love is wrong, their relationships are wrong etc.

Many people define themselves by husband, wife, etc that's what humans do, even in the Bible.

 

[BVS]

I realize the interpretation issues about homosexuality...especially in the OT...but happen to believe Paul when it comes to homosexuality. Sorry if you see it as absurd.

Do you believe Paul's view of women over everything else as well?

And why was it just Paul and no one else, Jesus never mentioned it...

 

[coemgen]

Do you believe Paul's view of women over everything else as well?

And why was it just Paul and no one else, Jesus never mentioned it...

This isn't really a fair comparison though, Paul's view of women is seen as a cultural thing. I might be wrong, but I think those views were expressed to one church -- likely crazy Corinth -- and he expressed differing views elsewhere.

 

[BVS]

This isn't really a fair comparison though, Paul's view of women is seen as a cultural thing. I might be wrong, but I think those views were expressed to one church -- likely crazy Corinth -- and he expressed differing views elsewhere.

So how is this not a fair comparison? Did Paul say it was a cultural thing? Actually Paul's view of women was pretty degrading throughout.

 

[Irvine511]

I disagree with it being natural. This is the turning point of our conversation. I hold to the scriptural views of it stated in the new testament over scientific findings. Still, I am not going to use it to hate you or to vote for things that would harm you. I interpret science in light of scripture and not the other way around. I realize the interpretation issues about homosexuality...especially in the OT...but happen to believe Paul when it comes to homosexuality. Sorry if you see it as absurd.

but science and the experience of millions upon millions of gay people demonstrably proves you wrong. its like saying you disagree with the sky being blue or you disagree that the days get shorter in the winter if you live in the northern hempisphere.

it strikes me as being willfully ignorant in order to justify a deeply felt belief system.

and just what is a gay person to do? be celibate? marry a straight person and make two people miserable?

 

[popsadie]

Ok...Paul and women. The thing about this is that Paul referenced women leaders in Romans, even specifically referring to a deaconess named Phoebe. Although I am aware of what is said about women leaders in his letter to Ephesians in 1 Timothy and in ! Corinthians 14. 34, his acknowledgment of Phoebe as a deaconness in Romans 16 1:2 tells me that the advice was specific to the Ephesians a. This is why I specifically see what he says to the Ephesians and Corinthians as specific messages to individual churches.
Seriously though, can I not hold a view that disagrees with something without having to hate the person that believes something different?

 

[popsadie]

Maybe you are right Irvine. Maybe it is to justify a deeply held belief system. Still, it is not using the bible to justify hatred of gays. To be honest...I've moved further to the right over time on this matter. I certainly didn't start out hating gays and then looking for religion to justify my hate.

 

[phillyfan26]

My point is that as a behaviour it is a matter of consensual acts between two or more individuals, it is a matter of liberty and it wouldn't matter if it was hard wired or elective it isn't wrong.

So are you still asking me a question here? I don't see anything wrong with homosexuality if that's what you are asking. It's natural, so God clearly doesn't either.

 

[Irvine511]

Maybe you are right Irvine. Maybe it is to justify a deeply held belief system. Still, it is not using the bible to justify hatred of gays. To be honest...I've moved further to the right over time on this matter. I certainly didn't start out hating gays and then looking for religion to justify my hate.

by saying you "disagree" with a naturally occuring orientation -- in the face of overwhelming science -- what other conclusions are to be drawn other than hate? disgust? pity? revulsion?

and what does it say about your religion if it leads you to hate/disgust/pity/revulsion towards a well-defined group of people who exist in all cultures across all countries in all races of all religions and throughghout history?

 

[phillyfan26]

I disagree with it being natural. This is the turning point of our conversation. I hold to the scriptural views of it stated in the new testament over scientific findings. Still, I am not going to use it to hate you or to vote for things that would harm you. I interpret science in light of scripture and not the other way around. I realize the interpretation issues about homosexuality...especially in the OT...but happen to believe Paul when it comes to homosexuality. Sorry if you see it as absurd.

There are plenty of inaccuracies in the Bible. Plenty. If you pick and choose them, then it IS using the Bible to discriminate. If you are going to the letter, as you are in this case, then it would be contadictory to not go to the letter in all Bible cases.

 

[coemgen]

So how is this not a fair comparison? Did Paul say it was a cultural thing? Actually Paul's view of women was pretty degrading throughout.

This site gives an example of how that's not true. You have to remember that each of his letter was written to a different church or audience. Some were out of control, so certain rules had to be put in place, others weren't.

http://www.xenos.org/teachings/nt/romans/gary/rom16-1.htm

 

[popsadie]

Again...I am not using it to discriminate. I don't agree with premarital sex, but I'm not creating bills to stop it or calling those that do it names. Actually, I am coming towards a more "to the letter" understanding of the bible..I have agreed to submit to my husband, and I do believe that the ten commandments were expressions of the nature of God. I do believe that supernatural things happened in the past and that the prophets foretold the Messiah's birth.
Regardless..I guess I should just drop this. My views on this aren't going to affect anyone's life and they are conflicted at best.

 

[phillyfan26]

Again...I am not using it to discriminate. I don't agree with premarital sex, but I'm not creating bills to stop it or calling those that do it names. Actually, I am coming towards a more "to the letter" understanding of the bible..I have agreed to submit to my husband, and I do believe that the ten commandments were expressions of the nature of God. I do believe that supernatural things happened in the past and that the prophets foretold the Messiah's birth.
Regardless..I guess I should just drop this. My views on this aren't going to affect anyone's life and they are conflicted at best.

You don't have to create bills or call names to discriminate.

 

[deep]

Again...I am not using it to discriminate. I don't agree with premarital sex, but I'm not creating bills to stop it or calling those that do it names. Actually, I am coming towards a more "to the letter" understanding of the bible..I have agreed to submit to my husband, and I do believe that the ten commandments were expressions of the nature of God. I do believe that supernatural things happened in the past and that the prophets foretold the Messiah's birth.
Regardless..I guess I should just drop this. My views on this aren't going to affect anyone's life and they are conflicted at best.

hi popsadie

I don't believe you are a bad person for your beliefs.

I don't believe you want or intend to discriminate.

I don't know what it is like to live in Oklahoma or any part of the South.

I have always lived L A / O C areas of California.


I think it would be difficult to go against the way one was brought up.

I am satisfied that you are "conflicted".

I think it may be unreasonable for any of us to expect you to become a "lightning rod" for tolerance / acceptance within your religious community.

I hope that you will continue to participate in these dialogues.


(disclaimer, I have not read each and every reply in this threat)

 

[coemgen]

hi popsadie

I don't believe you are a bad person for your beliefs.

I don't believe you want or intend to discriminate.

I don't know what it is like to live in Oklahoma or any part of the South.

I have always lived L A / O C areas of California.


I think it would be difficult to go against the way one was brought up.

I am satisfied that you are "conflicted".

I think it may be unreasonable for any of us to expect you to become a "lightning rod" for tolerance / acceptance within your religious community.

I hope that you will continue to participate in these dialogues.


(disclaimer, I have not read each and every reply in this threat)

This is the great wisdom that is deep.

 

[popsadie]

Thank you deep I am sorry if the way I presented my views hurt anyone. Again, I only got into this thread because of the way I saw Christianity being painted in this thread.

 

[martha]

I have agreed to submit to my husband,

 

[coemgen]

It's not like it seems, martha. The husband has to agree to sacrifice himself like Christ did for the church.

 

[popsadie]

yes....submit as in there needs to be a head in a family, not as in my wants or needs don't matter. Submission is a choice, and it is one made in the interest of family harmony and love for one's mate.

 

[INDY500]

Popsadie

Just wanted to say that I'm enjoying your posts.

I lived in Oklahoma back in the Barry Switzer years and spent a lot of time watching Count Gregore (is he still on?), listening to KOMA (do they still play rock?) and waiting for the tornado sirens to go off.

Does OSU still suck?

 

[popsadie]

Indy- as an OU alumnus and a spouse of an OU grad student...I must say that OSU still wishes it were OU Thanks for the comment You know, this is the first thread where I've felt like I'm a conservative. When I started posting on these boards back in 2000...I was labeled a liberal...strange...

 

[deep]

hi popsadie


I am satisfied that you are "conflicted".




(disclaimer, I have not read each and every reply in this threat)

so I did go back and read some more.

I disagree with it being natural. This is the turning point of our conversation. I hold to the scriptural views of it stated in the new testament over scientific findings. Still, I am not going to use it to hate you or to vote for things that would harm you. I interpret science in light of scripture and not the other way around. I realize the interpretation issues about homosexuality...especially in the OT...but happen to believe Paul when it comes to homosexuality. Sorry if you see it as absurd.

I disagree with it being natural..

This makes perfect sense if you add the words, "for me."

I would never expect to be able to tell you what is "natural" for you.

I honestly believe it is unnatural to be celibate.
I also believe it is unhealthy, physically, mentally and emotionally.

I hold to the scriptural views of it stated in the new testament over scientific findings
I interpret science in light of scripture and not the other way around

Again, this is your right "for you."

There are "religious" people that interpret 'science and medicine' through scripture.
Sometimes they reject medical treatment in favor of their "faith based" beliefs.
And almost always they fare much worse than those that accept science and medicine "unfiltered'.

Still, I am not going to use it to hate you or to vote for things that would harm you.

So I hope when you go to the polls you will vote for legislation that adds "gay-bashing" to hate crimes.
Looking at your web-page, I kind of suspect that you may be voting Democratic.

 

[Irvine511]

Indy- as an OU alumnus and a spouse of an OU grad student...I must say that OSU still wishes it were OU Thanks for the comment You know, this is the first thread where I've felt like I'm a conservative. When I started posting on these boards back in 2000...I was labeled a liberal...strange...

i took at look at your profile and even clicked on your webpage, and it seems like you're commited to a number of socially progressive causes, and i think that's great.

however, i wonder why people get stuck on the issue of homosexuality. you've said yourself that you're willing to be intentionally ignorant on the issue in order to justify a biblically held belief -- why do you consider this okay? if the bible said that you were to view black people as inferior, would you do so?

and i mean this to all the Christians out there -- liberal, conservative, or otherwise. what is the deal with homosexuality? why is it such a big deal? why, on the list of sins, does this one have a highly debatable place, not even in the top 10, does this become such a massive motivator?

why?









why do you hate me?

 

[INDY500]

Indy- as an OU alumnus and a spouse of an OU grad student...I must say that OSU still wishes it were OU Thanks for the comment You know, this is the first thread where I've felt like I'm a conservative. When I started posting on these boards back in 2000...I was labeled a liberal...strange...

Like they say, a conservative is simply a liberal mugged by reality.

 

[Irvine511]

Like they say, a conservative is simply a liberal mugged by reality.

and a liberal is a conservative who's been to jail.