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Old 06-05-2007, 07:31 PM   #211
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Originally posted by deep


please keep God

I like God

come on

give my question a try?
No, I think that matters.

Honestly, if the Bible still existed with Christ's teachings, I think I'd still follow them because I have found them beneficial in my life. If you're asking this to see if I'd just go crazy and "sin," I don't know if I would if there was a God. I'm not a Christian simply so I can go to heaven, I'm a Christian because I want a relationship with God. Plus, for me, that relationship has helped me lead the life I was meant to live.

If there was no God, no Bible and no afterlife, I think I'd still try to be a good person in my own mind, but I know I personally would've made a lot of mistakes and hurt people more.
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Old 06-05-2007, 07:31 PM   #212
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Yep, let's get right on it. The government should hire interference moderators to take care of it. They're awesome banners.
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Old 06-05-2007, 07:32 PM   #213
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Good to know I'm not going to hell.
Well, you are a believer, right? You're covered.
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Old 06-05-2007, 07:34 PM   #214
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Originally posted by coemgen


Well, you are a believer, right? You're covered.
Oh, I've been told I'm going there for less...
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Old 06-05-2007, 07:40 PM   #215
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not you

just your Jewish friends
What about my gay buddhist friends?
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Old 06-05-2007, 07:41 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


No, I think that matters.

Honestly, if the Bible still existed with Christ's teachings, I think I'd still follow them because I have found them beneficial in my life. If you're asking this to see if I'd just go crazy and "sin," I don't know if I would if there was a God. I'm not a Christian simply so I can go to heaven, I'm a Christian because I want a relationship with God. Plus, for me, that relationship has helped me lead the life I was meant to live.

If there was no God, no Bible and no afterlife, I think I'd still try to be a good person in my own mind, but I know I personally would've made a lot of mistakes and hurt people more.
I think the initial question is only about "no afterlife"?

I want to know as well. Because I'm not religious either.
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Old 06-05-2007, 07:42 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


What about my gay buddhist friends?
They covered by the Buddha, and Buddha doesn't think gay is unnatural or wrong, so no worries.

If Buddhas had a fight with the christian god, who would win?
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Old 06-05-2007, 07:42 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally posted by butter7


I think the initial question is only about "no afterlife"?

I want to know as well. Because I'm not religious either.
I know, I just think afterlife, God and the Bible are connected. For one, God inspired the Bible and it talks about an after life. You see what I'm saying? However, their could still be a God and no afterlife. Then, of course, he'd just be creating us to die.
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Old 06-05-2007, 07:47 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
However, their could still be a God and no afterlife. Then, of course, he'd just be creating us to die.
Or to live a fair and hopefully decent 75 years or so....
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Old 06-05-2007, 07:47 PM   #220
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen

If there was no God, no Bible and no afterlife, I think I'd still try to be a good person in my own mind, but I know I personally would've made a lot of mistakes and hurt people more.

I think you sell yourself and people, in general, short.

I am one who was once a "believer".
and now call myself a "doubter"


I consider myself a much more ethical person with better behavior now because I do not live for some other imaginary time and reward

my choices today matter for today and have consequences now

I am choosing to do what is right for the immediate reward of inner peace, harmony, my own self respect and to give comfort to others

I no longer ponder some other reward

I say I am a "doubter"
There may be something behind the curtain, believing it or not believing it will not change the outcome

Some day the curtain will be pulled back

In the meantime
I will not miss this life
dreaming and hoping for what may be behind the curtain

the curtain has no power over me

I choose to have power over my own life, now.
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Old 06-05-2007, 07:48 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


I know, I just think afterlife, God and the Bible are connected. For one, God inspired the Bible and it talks about an after life. You see what I'm saying? However, their could still be a God and no afterlife. Then, of course, he'd just be creating us to die.
So...the point is that people just don't want to die then?

I mean, it's more than just one afterlife created by the christian god, there's many other religions have the afterlife thing too...

What do you think of them?

And also religions with no afterlife...

I just feel confused with so many different belives.
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Old 06-05-2007, 08:06 PM   #222
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


I consider myself a much more ethical person with better behavior now because I do not live for some other imaginary time and reward

my choices today matter for today and have consequences now

I am choosing to what is right for the immediate reward or inner peace, harmony, my own self respect and to give comfort to others

I no longer ponder some other reward

I say I am a "doubter"
There may be something behind the curtain, believing it or not believing it will not change the outcome

Some day the curtain will be pull back

In the meantime
I will not miss this life
dreaming and hoping for what may be behind the curtain

the curtain has no power over me

I choose to have power over my own life, now.
The thing is, I live my life the same way. I don't think of getting a reward down the road or even heaven. I can't earn heaven. I'll get there because I've already accepted Christ as the cure for my sins. I'm glad I don't have to think of earning heaven because I don't think my heart would be in the right place. God was wise in not making it about what we do -- it'd just be built in selfishness.
Because of this, I'm like you in that I'm choosing to do what is right for inner peace, harmony, self respect and to give comfort to others.

Because I'm not living for a reward or heaven, I think life's much more simple. I'm working on a project with my pastor and he told me he's considering simplifying things in our communication pieces. He's thinking of changing our tag line to "Love God. Love people. Serve the world."

That's how I try to live and it's even very Biblical in how Christians should live in general.

It all starts with the relationship with God though. That's what I want. I want his love, his guidance in my life, his forgiveness, his mercy, his power and his help. I desire him daily. I want the life that he intended for me and he reveals his will for me through the Bible, prayer and other Christians. It's been quite a wonderful life -- even with the insane amount of challenges.

My question to you to ponder on is what if there is a God behind the curtain?
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Old 06-05-2007, 08:14 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
If you knew that at your physical death, there would be no after life, do you think you might make different choices now?
I wouldn't go to Church, but really that's about it.

I believe in karma, so that belief would probably be questioned as well. I've never believed God was involved in every earthly action though.

Other than that, not particularly.
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Old 06-05-2007, 08:16 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen

My question to you to ponder on is what if there is a God behind the curtain?
My hope is that he is there
and I will be reunited with my departed loved ones.

But I don't dwell on it
or count on it.

All that would do
is rob me of living life in the here and now, sharing with my loved ones and others.
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Old 06-05-2007, 08:17 PM   #225
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Originally posted by popsadie
Pretty much everything else in the bible I have been able to find a logic to. I admit that I struggle with the logic against homosexuality. It isn't a brutal act and it isn't an inherently selfish act. It doesn't seem to violate the "love God and one another" that Jesus said summed up the ten commandments. The dietary laws in the OT make sense and the ten commandments all make sense. Still, I believe that if I am going to say that I believe in the bible, I have reconcile in someway even the beliefs that don't seem logical.
The problem, though, is that your entire argument here is predicated on the notion that St. Paul actually condemns homosexuality, when he does not. This point is clear enough, from a scholarship POV, that the footnotes of a Catholic Bible actually say so.

"Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes (Greek: "malakos") nor sodomites (Greek: "arsenokoitai") nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God." - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

This is not a description of modern homosexuality. It is a description of an archaic Greco-Roman practice known as "pederasty," where a male adult would have sexual relations with a male youth until he reached adulthood, whereupon the relationship would be severed and the former youth would marry a woman. The relationship was not loving, but, instead, exploitative and forced against the youth's will. The Catholic footnotes I referred to corroborate this interpretation:

Quote:
The Greek word translated as boy prostitutes may refer to catamites, i.e., boys or young men who were kept for purposes of prostitution, a practice not uncommon in the Greco-Roman world. In Greek mythology this was the function of Ganymede, the "cupbearer of the gods," whose Latin name was Catamitus. The term translated Sodomites refers to adult males who indulged in homosexual practices with such boys. See similar condemnations of such practices in Romans 1:26-27; 1 Tim 1:10.
Do take notice of that Paul's other supposedly anti-gay passages in Romans and 1 Timothy are also referenced in the footnotes as referring to archaic practices that have nothing to do with modern homosexuality.

Romans 1:26-27, in particular, describes a Greco-Roman pagan temple orgy, and, in this instance, was written to horrify the Jewish Christian audience he was trying to convert to Gentile Christianity. However, Paul used this passage as a setup to the point he was ultimately trying to drive across in Romans 2:

"Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things." - Romans 2:1

Paul was, essentially, condemning the self-righteousness of his audience, and, again, used the chapter to set up another point:

"All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified." - Romans 2:12-13

The Jewish Christian audience of Rome would have interpreted "the law" as referring to Mosaic Law. And Paul has a habit of being purposely ambiguous (this "ambiguity" trick was later played in the Gentile Christian revision of the originally Jewish Christian Gospel of Matthew), so he can drive his ultimate point towards the end of his epistle.

"Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,' and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" - Romans 13:8-10

And here's where he ensnares his audience once and for all. "The law" is defined as "love one another." In short, those who fixate on that verse in Romans 1 is completely missing the message of this epistle, and has nothing to do with modern homosexuality.

You rightfully understand the nuance with Paul's verse that forbids women to instruct over men. Where conservative Christianity's prejudices bear its ugly head is in its steadfast refusal to understand the specific circumstances and nuance behind the supposedly anti-gay passages. They are, both in the OT and NT, condemnations of archaic sexual practices, either in terms of abusive pederasty or idolatrous pagan temple orgies--both of which were completely devoid of any love or meaningful affection. As such, any insistence that the Bible condemns "homosexuality," as understood in a modern context, is completely incorrect.

In many ways, this brings me back to "scientific Thomism," as this is the basis upon which the Roman Catholic Church condemns modern homosexuality, not the Bible. Vatican officials have expressed this openly in the past, and, as such, that's why a homophobic religion like Catholicism has not shied away from modern Biblical scholarship. I find it very unfortunate that the Vatican insists on clinging to this pseudoscience, rather than relying on the spirit of philosophical Thomism to accept the advances of modern science in its entirety.

Unfortunately, as we have seen throughout history, many ancient institutions are "tradition-stubborn." And, equally unfortunately, most conservative Protestants are "tradition-stubborn" on the issue of their Biblical translations, which are riddled with mistranslations.

As such, as I've stated before, "Biblically-based Christians" cannot use the Bible to condemn homosexuality, if they interpret the Bible correctly. This also solves your logic struggle, as well, as condemnations of abusive or idolatrous pagan sexual practices are fully in keeping with "love God and love one another."
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