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Old 10-11-2001, 01:15 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama:
Patti Jones:

I see that one of your interests is "human rights;" it is one of my interests too!

But you may disagree with me on this:

Even prior to the Sept. 11 tragedy, I would have supported a military action to remove the repressive governments of Afghanistan (the Taliban) and Sudan, among some other countries. We all know about the atrocities committed by the Taliban regarding religious freedom and women's rights; and Sudan, their government still has SlAVERY, plus religious persecution. But I don't see how such regimes will ever come down without force! They aren't going to just say "Okay, slaves, you're free! Everyone else, let's have democratic elections!"

~U2Alabama
I half agree, I mean, I would LOVE those Taliban to leave the control of Afghanistan and every Muslim to keep being Muslim if they want to or not if they dont and women to be able to show their faces and Iím for NATO help to "Southern Alliance" (Afghani guerrilla) Ďcos I donít think that the guerrilla can make it for themselves. Iím not a pacifist in the way i would love to be. But, donít mix the things, one thing is to bring someone out of the gov and another thing is to bomb a city (ask American revolutions (and with America i mean the whole continent from pole to pole) we have a big history of gov falling without bombings)
and also, US gov is not fighting with the Afghani guerrilla, they are not even giving them arms or anything, they are like two separated wars.
And about the support you are giving to your country to go against Sudan's Gov, that is what ppl hates about US, you are always puting your noses where you are not being called.
Let me give you an example: in the 70ies in Argentina we had a Comunism fanatism growm, so, your CIA decided that the best they could do was to help this poor country and take away that "comunist evilness"...and they put in a military gov (without a bombing). The result: 30000 ppl dissapeared and another similar amount of deads, why? because they were supposed to be comunists. We had all the Nazis details even the fields where the detained ppl were taken to and where they were raped and tortured. And a lot of atrocities that if you want to I can tell you for hours. All paid for the CIA, and the CIA recognized it. We didnt have a BIG problem with the comunism growing but your "help" make it all worse. It is not the same as in Sudan, but it is a good example for you to see that, sometimes, you should take care of what's your bussiness and nothing more.
Maybe you should help Sudan's rebelions, but truthly, not in the way you are helping Afghani rebelions (that is in no way)...i keep saying you are not wrong, you just have to point your arrows in a better way, if you have the strenght to make of this a better world, what are you waiting for?

Sorry for the lengh, if you get to read up to here thanks for the atention! i stop botherin'.

Love and true peace on earth!

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Old 10-11-2001, 01:22 AM   #17
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Originally posted by TylerDurden:
Not true.

(((Hugs America)))


And it's just a forum.

But American beer is so piss-weak and watered down it's barely beer.

And you can keep yer P.Diddy.

(end rant)

Thanks, Tyler...I was in a bad mood when I wrote that. ((((Hugs Tyler & Australia))) Thanks for all the support from your country.

If you want P.Diddy we'll gladly let you have him...lol

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Old 10-11-2001, 02:25 AM   #18
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But, please, again, check foreign NATO newspapers. I think we will never know the TRUE, but just in case, dont think you are completely right, listen to both side's stories. In my country we heard of 20 civilians deads and in spanish CNN we can see the images of destroyed houses


Wake up, Patti, we heard that in the US also. Our attacks are not targeting civilian areas, some people were just at the wrong place at the wrong time.


And try to remember if this would be the first time your gov lies to you. (It wont be the first time that your and our gov lie to us, here)


This statement unveils your pathetic anti-American mindset. Clearly, there's nothing the US can do that would satisfy you. If we send aid, we're only "pretending to care" (bullshit!) But, if we cut that aid you will be the first to cry foul.
[/B][/QUOTE]



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Old 10-11-2001, 03:09 AM   #19
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I think that dropping food is a good thing. It shows the Afghans that we are not out to get them - just the Taliban. If we didn't care about the people, we'd "carpet bomb" Afghanistan instead of surgical strikes. The only way a food shipment could hurt is if it landed on someone's head.
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Old 10-11-2001, 03:26 AM   #20
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We need to stop wasting time and money on so called humanitarian aid.
If we don't do it we get pilloried in the press. If we do we get pilloried in the press.
If we don't supply humanitarian aid billions of people hate us. If we do supply humanitarian aid billions of people hate us.
If we don't do food drops we are the Great Satan. If we do food drops we are the Great Satan.

For once let's actually BE the Great Satan. Fuck 'em.

MP

[This message has been edited by Matthew_Page2000 (edited 10-10-2001).]
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Old 10-11-2001, 10:31 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by StarsnStripes:
This statement unveils your pathetic anti-American mindset. Clearly, there's nothing the US can do that would satisfy you. If we send aid, we're only "pretending to care" (bullshit!) But, if we cut that aid you will be the first to cry foul.

Amen, Star-n-Stripes. I wonder if she went to the Holy John school of politics.


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Old 10-11-2001, 04:05 PM   #22
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Looking back on what I've written I realize I phrased things rather badly and I need to clarify. America needs to continue to try to do the right thing. We've failed rather badly at that in several instances in the world with the Middle East being one of those places that we've failed. Reflection is a good thing right now and I can damn near guarantee that whatever public face our government is putting on at the moment that they are also reflecting on the past and what we can do differently in the future.
HOWEVER, some people will never be satisfied. For reasons both understandable AND paranoid some people and some nations will always think the worst of the United States. Patti Jones for instance, although a seemingly nice enough woman doesn't even think that Al'Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden are responsible for the September 11 attacks. She also is seemingly convinced that the U.S. military is slaughtering civilians. She suggests that we try to do better. I agree with her but with one caveat: We have to understand that we will never please people like her. Nothing that we do will be enough and everything that we do will be too much.
It's a horrible thing to acknowledge but if only 20 civilians have been killed after three days of heavy bombing by the most powerful air force in the world I would characterize that as both fortunate and remarkable. I was steeling myself for hundreds of innocent deaths.
Remember that when we started the bombing (heck, before we even sent the planes to the Middle East!) many were convinced that the U.S. was set to slaughter thousands upon thousands of innocent men, women and children. There was much gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands about the upcoming "slaughter" but that looks a little silly in retrospect doesn't it?

Can we do better? Yes, of course we can. Should we listen to voices of dissent? Yes, we must for our own sakes and our integrity. But should we take all criticisms to heart? No, absolutely not. Sometimes you've just got to say it: Fuck 'em.

MAP (the u2 fan formerly known as MP)
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Old 10-11-2001, 09:13 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by StarsnStripes:
[b]
Wake up, Patti, we heard that in the US also. Our attacks are not targeting civilian areas, some people were just at the wrong place at the wrong time.


I try to stay as awake as the news allowe me. But, i repeat, CNN en espaŮol has the images (if you get the channel, otherwise i think they can be found in cnnenespanol.com) of HOMES destroyed by the bombings. And up to today (with the Tuesday, Wednesday and todays bombing) we have 200 civilians dead. Your army bombed a Mosque and not Mula Omar's one...D'you read this in your newspapers?...D'you still believe you dont have civilians targets?

This statement unveils your pathetic anti-American mindset. Clearly, there's nothing the US can do that would satisfy you. If we send aid, we're only "pretending to care" (bullshit!) But, if we cut that aid you will be the first to cry foul.
I cant believe what i read here, boy! c'mon! First of all, i don't hate US (sorry, for me America is the whole continent, since im american too) . This is just a forum...and I read a lot of things I can see ppl out here does not share...so i send my point of wiew...

If you are sending this aid and it is not working, or it is making the things worst, does it make any sence to keep wasting money in it? Does it show your worry for Afghani ppl or it is just that you don't care about what ONG like the Red Cross and MSF are asking for? Answer me that, please.

Avoid the whole rest, consider this: If you are bombing a country and sending aid to the ppl to prove that country's ppl that you care about them and that aid is damaging that ppl: Is it a good thing to keep wasting money and time and food to show that ppl something that they are not seein? If the help only make the things worst? Please answer me that.

I really expect you as the bigger country on earth to do the things better...it is my humble opinion...but i dont want you to stop being the first country or whatever you are, my country is a LOT worse than yours in many topics and a LOT better in some others.

Again too long, cya!
Love and Peace on earth!

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Old 10-11-2001, 09:23 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
[b] -----------------------------------------
Originally posted by StarsnStripes:
This statement unveils your pathetic anti-American mindset. Clearly, there's nothing the US can do that would satisfy you. If we send aid, we're only "pretending to care" (bullshit!) But, if we cut that aid you will be the first to cry foul.
---------------------------------------

Amen, Star-n-Stripes. I wonder if she went to the Holy John school of politics.
I dont mean to say this, but, i could have answered that that statement shows your "stupid patriotism" no matter if your country is right or not...It is like "if we have killed 6000 ppl in other country it is OK, 'cos we are US"...that only shows your negative to improve your bad attitudes 'cos "Im attacking US".

Anyway, i don't think so, I still believe you can start to think leaving your patriotism behind ('cos who may be wrong here is the US press and not your WHOLE country, perhaps), but it is a way to show you that Im not treating you with a lack of respect, as you are treating me.

Love and peace on earth.

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Old 10-11-2001, 09:38 PM   #25
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Patti, I find a couple things very curious about your statements.

First, you still doubt that Al Queda was involved? Gimme a break. Just who do you think put this together? I would argue that even if they weren't involved our current actions are very much justified, but there is little reason to believe they weren't behind this.

Secondly, why do you assume that the destroyed houses you saw were the result of our bombs? Look at the footage...one can't tell the difference from a month ago to today. The country is a wasteland and many houses lay destroyed long before we did dropped a single bomb. The Soviets took care of that, and the civil war has taken out untold numbers of structures in the decade since.

Some Afghan civilians have died, and more will. Such is the nature of war, as unfortunate as it is. But we don't target civilians; they do. Shit...they target their own, and rest assured that the Taliban wouldn't hesitate to kill significant numbers of Afghan people and try to lay the blame on us.

[This message has been edited by MSU2mike (edited 10-11-2001).]
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Old 10-11-2001, 09:51 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Matthew_Page2000:
States. Patti Jones for instance, although a seemingly nice enough woman doesn't even think that Al'Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden are responsible for the September 11 attacks.
First of all, thanx for the nice thing. Hey! I dont want to be rough, and Im always afraid of being missundestood...

Let me give you the example of why i don't think it was Bin Laden & Co. If you are able to blow a US embassy, killing 200 unitedstatians ('cos in the embassy they had native ppl) and send a comunicate in wich you say "Yes, it was me" as Bin Laden has done before; why would you be afraid of saying "It was me" this time? And he didnt remaint silent, he said "IT WASNT ME". I think of two options:

1) It wasnt Bin Laden
2) US does not give a damn of what happens outside their boundaries and so if I blow an embassy in another country nothing will happen to me, but if I do it inside the country they will try to kill me.

Result: And here it is a good proff of my respect for the US: As I don't think you don't give a damn of what happens outside the US, I think it wasnt Bin Laden.

Quote:
She also is seemingly convinced that the U.S. military is slaughtering civilians.
You are not "slaughtering" civilians you are just not taking enough care of where are you bombing...and I repeat: you bombed a Mosque.

Quote:
She suggests that we try to do better. I agree with her but with one caveat: We have to understand that we will never please people like her. Nothing that we do will be enough and everything that we do will be too much.
This is not true, i have said that i support your work with the "South Alliance" to help them to take the Taliban out of Afghanistan, I've said that the Taliban are having what they deserve for the way they answered to your demands (But again, I dont think it was Al Q'aeda) and all, but you only seem to remember what i said i disagree with sniff

Quote:
It's a horrible thing to acknowledge but if only 20 civilians have been killed after three days of heavy bombing by the most powerful air force in the world I would characterize that as both fortunate and remarkable. I was steeling myself for hundreds of innocent deaths.
Well, today you have them: 200 civilians dead.

Quote:
Remember that when we started the bombing (heck, before we even sent the planes to the Middle East!)
Yes, how wonderfull machines you have that can bomb a country without being on! lol
The press was tought with you in that. And I remember it.

Quote:
many were convinced that the U.S. was set to slaughter thousands upon thousands of innocent men, women and children. There was much gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands about the upcoming "slaughter" but that looks a little silly in retrospect doesn't it?
Not that much. Im afraid that, if we have 200 deaths up to today and this will last years we will have more than 6000 afghani ppl dead.

Quote:
Can we do better? Yes, of course we can. Should we listen to voices of dissent? Yes, we must for our own sakes and our integrity. But should we take all criticisms to heart? No, absolutely not. Sometimes you've just got to say it: Fuck 'em.
MAP (the u2 fan formerly known as MP)
You know, keep saying "fuck them" and privilege your "sake and dignity" it is what will keep terrorist organization ('cos i think there are more than Al Q'aeda) fighting against you...and I KNOW you are strong enought to raise upon every attack they commint, but, how many lifes this will cost?

Love and peace on earth!

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Old 10-11-2001, 10:02 PM   #27
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I might be wrong...but I'm not really sure if bin Laden has ever clearly admitted guilt for any of his attacks. The closest was in one of his training videos months after the Navy ship bombing, but he still didn't clearly say 'I did it'.
But I might be wrong....
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Old 10-11-2001, 10:17 PM   #28
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Originally posted by TylerDurden:
I might be wrong...but I'm not really sure if bin Laden has ever clearly admitted guilt for any of his attacks. The closest was in one of his training videos months after the Navy ship bombing, but he still didn't clearly say 'I did it'.
But I might be wrong....
He hasn't said "I did it" to my knowledge, but the video that was released a few days ago (and apparently recorded some time back) seemed to be a pretty clear indication that he was responsible. Saying that there would be more hijackings and we should be fearful looked like a pretty solid confession to me.

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Old 10-11-2001, 11:07 PM   #29
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One thing we need to keep in mind re: terrorists' "admissions" is that in some attacks, SEVERAL different groups have independently claimed to do one attack, while others have never been claimed by anyone! Oftentimes, these groups will claim an attack for popularity, or one will accuse another of doing it. And especially is it rare when one individual will claim responsibility for an attack; keep in mind that The Osama is likely the "mastermind" behind such attacks; as he devises them and finances them, they don't want to put too much focus on his involvement as they don't want to Arab governments to realize "Hey, this guy WAS involved!" and turn him over.

Do you like Al Qaeda? I promise I am just curious.

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Old 10-11-2001, 11:08 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by MSU2mike:
Patti, I find a couple things very curious about your statements.

First, you still doubt that Al Queda was involved? Gimme a break. Just who do you think put this together? I would argue that even if they weren't involved our current actions are very much justified, but there is little reason to believe they weren't behind this.
I answer this in another post.

[quote]
Secondly, why do you assume that the destroyed houses you saw were the result of our bombs? Look at the footage...one can't tell the difference from a month ago to today. The country is a wasteland and many houses lay destroyed long before we did dropped a single bomb. The Soviets took care of that, and the civil war has taken out untold numbers of structures in the decade since.
[/qoute]

It is a today new that a Mosque has been bombed (maybe im TOO repetitive, but i CANT believe it)...so it all can be possible...but it wont sound weird to me if taliban destroy their city to blame you...but the newspaper said it was 'cos of your bombing.

Quote:

Some Afghan civilians have died, and more will. Such is the nature of war, as unfortunate as it is. But we don't target civilians; they do. Shit...they target their own, and rest assured that the Taliban wouldn't hesitate to kill significant numbers of Afghan people and try to lay the blame on us.

[This message has been edited by MSU2mike (edited 10-11-2001).]
I believe they will...GOD, I cant undestand Taliban, I cant...
But I cant live just saying "It is the nature of war" we are not dealing with a normal war...sorry..i will go on tomorrow...im rally SAD...

Love and peace on earth!



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