Motion to recognize "Quebecers" a nation--any thoughts?

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It would be interesting to have some "Quebecois" enter into the debate - I would like to hear their opinion on this.

I'm starting to feel like Diamond would in a thread celebrating a Democratic win :wink:
 
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ladywithspinninghead said:
It would be interesting to have some "Quebecois" enter into the debate - I would like to hear their opinion on this.

Well... I can't say I speak for all Québécois. I don't even know what that means anymore :wink:

I agree that this debate came out of nowhere. The general population didn't ask for this, some politicians in the Liberal party mentioned it and now it became this huge deal.

The first step is to point out the difference between the French and English definitions of "nation". They are mostly the same, yet in French we mostly feel it is meant as a sociological notion. I think the word "people" would have been more appropriate. A group of people sharing a common language, culture, history, etc. The word "nation" is awfully confusing when you think of related notions such as nationality. My nationality is Canadian, but my "nation" is Québec?

I think everybody agrees that Quebecers (or French Canadians, to leave out no one) and English Canadians are different in language, culture and mentality. In this sense, we are different "nations" in one country. And in a way, Quebecers want Canada to recognize that. Yet at the same time, people (myself included) know that we are different, we don't need anyone to tell us.

Harper tried to surprise the Bloc with this motion, probably to win more seats in Québec. I doubt this will happen.

I'm not a separatist. I define myself as a federalist and believe Québec should be in a united Canada. This is what makes Canada: so many cultures. The problem is: Québec is not in the Constitution. Now that's a problem, and I think it must be solved. But this is not the right way to do it.

Québec is and has always been a "nation" or a "people" or whatever.
I think the real question is: what is Canada?
 
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As long the premier of Québec won't sign the constitution..(it's been 24 years now) it won't go away.Last i checked,Jean Charest isn't a separatist,neither were Robert Bourassa or Daniel Johnson Jr.,and non of them have put their signature at the bottom of the fondamental law of Canada.

As for Stephen Harper motion,well it's very simple,the Tories are around 12% in the polls here in Québec.If he wants a majority goverment,he needs to be around 30-35% in the Province,which that could give him something like 20-25 seats.So this motion is purely a electoral move,period.Same for the liberals.After the sponsorship scandal, they want to give us a "Candy" with the nation status.

But again,until it's put in the constitution it has zero meaning.And since it won't be put in the constitution anytime soon,no Québec premiers will put their signature at the bottom of that important paper.And so the cloud will still hang over our head and so will a next referemdum.

The fact is, since the 95' referemdum,the rest of the country hasn't learn his lesson.They came here 3 days before the referemdum to tell us "We love you Québec,We love you Québec,please don't go!....but special status?..No f***ing way!

......And after that,they wonder why we always send 50 some Bloc Mps at the House of Commun and might elect The Partie Québecois for the next Provincial General election....
 
Badyouken said:


I think everybody agrees that Quebecers (or French Canadians, to leave out no one) and English Canadians are different in language, culture and mentality. In this sense, we are different "nations" in one country. And in a way, Quebecers want Canada to recognize that. Yet at the same time, people (myself included) know that we are different, we don't need anyone to tell us.



Have you ever been to Newfoundland? I could easily insert it in the paragraph above, in place of Québec, and reach the same level of argument. In fact, ever since our province joined confederation in 1949, there's been a small, but growing, and very vocal group of people who have gone on tirades about "how we were better off alone," "how Canada doesn't understand us," and so on.

It's also worth noting that we initially rejected a union with Canada. And then, when the idea eventually came to a vote again in 1949, only 51 per cent of us said "yes." That's the very same percentage that voted to stay in Canada during the last Québec referendum in 1995.

You said it best when you mentioned how the current debate "came out of nowhere." It came from a vacuous place of stupidity--otherwise known as 'opportunistic politicians.'

This shouldn't be the biggest issue of the day. I'll take the environment on that one. How about declaring that a nation and protecting it?


RavenBlue said:


Rick Mercer and 22 minutes had some fun with that last night.



He's great! :up: :drool:

It's funny, he actually got his big start because of issues surrounding Quebec and Canada. When the Mulroney government in Ottawa tried to bring Quebec into the constitution through the Meech Lake Accord, the whole issue of a 'distinct society' drew fire from our Newfoundland premier. He rejected the notion, and claimed that all Canadians are distinct.

In the midst of it all, a national newspaper columnist wrote a story about how "if Canada had to choose between Québec and Newfoundland, Newfoundland should go." (The exact words were "it should be towed out to sea and sunk.")

Mercer went off on his first official rant because of the story. The rest is history. Canadian history.
 
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Badyouken said:

I think everybody agrees that Quebecers (or French Canadians, to leave out no one) and English Canadians are different in language, culture and mentality. In this sense, we are different "nations" in one country

Who are English Canadians?

A Pakistani immigrant who lives in Toronto and speaks English or a Ukrainian immigrant in the Prairies or a Chinese immigrant in Vancouver are suddenly the same as a WASP living in Windsor?

Quebec wants special status because they are different all the while the rest of English Canada is supposedly this homogeneous place. There is a huge paradox right there.
 
angelordevil said:



Have you ever been to Newfoundland? I could easily insert it in the paragraph above, in place of Québec, and reach the same level of argument. In fact, ever since our province joined confederation in 1949, there's been a small, but growing, and very vocal group of people who have gone on tirades about "how we were better off alone," "how Canada doesn't understand us," and so on.

I totally agree. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Québec is the only "different" one here in Canada, hence my question: what is Canada exactly? United nations? A multicultural patchwork?

I think this whole issue is pointless and shouldn't have been brought up in the first place.

But this won't change the fact that (some) Quebecers want some sort of recognition...
 
anitram said:


Who are English Canadians?

A Pakistani immigrant who lives in Toronto and speaks English or a Ukrainian immigrant in the Prairies or a Chinese immigrant in Vancouver are suddenly the same as a WASP living in Windsor?

Quebec wants special status because they are different all the while the rest of English Canada is supposedly this homogeneous place. There is a huge paradox right there.

English Canada is definitely not a homogeneous place. But you are all united by the same language, which many Quebecers don't understand perfectly or speak fluently. It creates this great rift between Québec and the ROC. A Newfoundlander and an Albertan will both watch Rick Mercer on CBC, understand and laugh. But in Québec, most people don't even know who the guy is. "Two solitudes".

I don't think this motion is relevant - we have much more important things to deal with.

There is a kind of tribalism that's still around in Québec unfortunately, and many people are left out of the tribe.

Even I, sometimes, feel out of place in there. I live in Québec but study in Ottawa. I speak English with no accent and have many "English Canadian" friends. For some reason, some people say I'm not a "real" Québécois (I don't have the French accent in English) or say that I sold out (how dare I hang out with both French and English Canadians?). It's only a small minority who feels this way, but it's still there.

I think Québec and the ROC are both out of touch with each other. And until we all have a common way of communicating (i.e. until you all learn French or we all learn English properly), then this whole thing will remain.
 
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Badyouken said:


English Canada is definitely not a homogeneous place. But you are all united by the same language, which many Quebecers don't understand perfectly or speak fluently. It creates this great rift between Québec and the ROC. A Newfoundlander and an Albertan will both watch Rick Mercer on CBC, understand and laugh. But in Québec, most people don't even know who the guy is. "Two solitudes".

I don't think this motion is relevant - we have much more important things to deal with.

There is a kind of tribalism that's still around in Québec unfortunately, and many people are left out of the tribe.

Even I, sometimes, feel out of place in there. I live in Québec but study in Ottawa. I speak English with no accent and have many "English Canadian" friends. For some reason, some people say I'm not a "real" Québécois (I don't have the French accent in English) or say that I sold out (how dare I hang out with both French and English Canadians?). It's only a small minority who feels this way, but it's still there.

I think Québec and the ROC are both out of touch with each other. And until we all have a common way of communicating (i.e. until you all learn French or we all learn English properly), then this whole thing will remain.

I can definately relate to your situation, and I totally agree with everything you said. For the record I am a francophone Québécoise, fully raised in a 100% French environment until I wandered on the English side in my late teens and ended up studying at an anglophone university. I am personally tired of the independance debate and if there were a referendum to separate from Canada tomorrow I would vote 'no'. That being said in 1995 although I was too young to vote if I could have I would have voted 'yes' and I was really sad the next day when it didn't pass.

But in my mind Québec is a nation and there is no doubt about that, so it's about time that the rest of Canada recognise it and stop living in denial. The majority of Québécois, and more particularly the vast majority of francophone Québécois, do not consider themselves Canadian at all, and have completely different cultural references to the rest of the country, myself included.

Of course Canada is a country of great diversity, and you will find people in each province (more so in places like Newfoundland) that consider themselves different enough that they would maybe like to be their own country too. But it's on a completely different scale. I am sorry but we are far from a situation where, if there was a referendum to separate tomorrow in Newfoundland, no one could predict the result. Of course things were different in 1949 when they joined, but i am talking about today.

And THE fundamental difference is the language. Language is the most important element of culture and identity. The Rick Mercer example is perfect because it illustrates how much we have different cultural references. People in Québec watch TV that is about 95% created and produced in Québec. Francophones never watch The National at night and barely know of its existence. People read a totally different set of newspapers. Talk about Rick Mercer or ANY other popular TV character in Québec and people will have no idea what you are talking about. If I walk up to pretty much any franchone Québécois of my generation and I throw out references to Passe-Partout, it's almost garantee that the person will relate because we ALL grew up watching the same kid's show. We have our own 'star system' of actors, musicians, TV people, with TV programs and magazines entirely devoted to it. These people could walk in the streets of Toronto or Vancouver without anyone recognising them. We have a different set of jokes, songs, values, and so on.

Now because the crux of the difference is language, is makes defining what is a Québécois a very delicate task. I know for a fact that anglophone Québécois find themselves in a very unique position (I used to date one), where they generally have a greater attachment to Canada than their francophone counterparts, but they also have some level of Québécois identity. Same with Native people and immigrants. Still Québec is politically, culturally and demographically dominated by francophones, so it's bound to have a big influence on this whole constitutional and national debate.

I have travelled more in the "rest of Canada" than most Québécois, I am completely fluent in English, and my life is now separed almost 50-50 between English and French. I find most of my fellow Québécois to be quite close minded towards Canada, and that they like to focus more on the differences than on our many similarities. I totally agree with everyone who said that there are more important issues to deal with. But that doesn't change that fact that Québécois and Canadians are as different, if not more, than Canadians and Americans, or Québécois and French. You can't force a national identity on people, and it's something that is mostly based on intangible, subjective and emotional factors. Personally I feel more Québécoise than Canadian, there is absolutely no doubt about that, but that doesn't mean i think we should have our own separate country.

The rest of Canada can keep denying how most Québécois feel all they want, but it doesn't change the reality. There is indeed a great misunderstanding in this country.
 
Very well said, oceane. I had no idea you were from Québec.

I have issues with the word "nation" itself.

I am currently completing an internship in Germany.. and people here are really surprised at this motion and keep asking me what I think of all this. They find the word "nation" to be very strong. In German, "Nation" has a similar meaning as the English or French words, but it brings back very bad memories... They understand that Québec is different, but they think another word should have been used. I agree.

That's why this motion is so confusing and irrelevant: nothing is defined.
 
Yeah I also have huge issues with the concept of a nation, or anything related to nationalism, patriotism, etc. You will never see me putting a flag on my bag, whether it's a Québec one or a Canadian one. Some of it can be useful and positive, but it can lead to terrible things, and the Germans know this better than anyone else. That's why ultimately I reject the souverainistes' project for Québec. But at the same time you can't completely deny the importance for people to have a common identity. For some it can be tribal, ethnic, for other it's related to the idea of a nation, and for many it means you should have your own country. But where does it stop? I would much prefer if we left all of that behind us and moved on to things that are more important, like the environment, social justice, equality, etc. But in Québec we are FAR from that. I am not sure what this specific motion will change in the long run, but it would make me happy if the rest of Canada would finally come to terms with the fact that Québec IS fundamentally different, that whether or not people want to recognise it it is NOT just another province. It never has been and never will be. I still think we can all stay in the same federation though...
 
I'm not Canadian (although my dad's side of the family did emigrate to the US from Quebec back in the day and I have the last name to prove it), but I find this discussion very interesting. I grew up around a lot of anglophone Canadians (even dated guys from Alberta and Newfoundland), and in the last five years I learned French and now have some Quebecois friends as well. Visiting Ottawa and Montreal was fascinating to me because it really did feel different. I've been to B.C., Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Ontario, but Quebec seemed to have more of a distinct-ness apart from strictly a linguistic one. As an outsider, it's a little hard to put your finger on it, but it definitely was there.

I'm trying to figure out a way to say this without insulting anyone, so bear with me. :) I have friends from France as well, and the culture there is of course different than North America. Intitally, when I was getting to know people from Quebec, it was disconcerting because subconsciously (for me anyways) when I am speaking French I'm expecting to be dealing with someone who "acts" French. And I've not found that to be the case at all with Quebecois. They're not French, but they're not quite like Canadians (anglophone) either. Again, these are just my personal experiences and not at all objective or quantifiable. Any time you start making generalizations about people in a group, you're bound to use stereotypes and people by definition are individuals, so I hope I haven't offended anyone.

Anyways, I'll be curious to see how this all plays out. Btw, oceane, are you still in the Gambia? I lived in Mali for a few years and a lot of my friends visited Senegal and the Gambia. I never did get the chance, but I heard it was cool. :wave:
 
oceane said:
Yeah I also have huge issues with the concept of a nation, or anything related to nationalism, patriotism, etc. You will never see me putting a flag on my bag, whether it's a Québec one or a Canadian one. Some of it can be useful and positive, but it can lead to terrible things, and the Germans know this better than anyone else.

:love:These are my feelings exactly. Nationalism, patriotism , etc have always terrified me. I'm proud of who and what I am but I don't feel like letting everyone know about it.
 
I was thinking about Québec separatism today, and I started wondering how much of it has to do with issues of self-determination.

In other words, no matter how many favors and benefits that English Canada can give Québec, there's still the "indignity" of having to get permission from "the Other" for much of what you want to do. In the end, it's like a grown child having to ask permission from their parents before doing anything.

Well, that's just an outside view. Perhaps our Québécois here can tell me if I'm right or wrong here.
 
Seems to be Harper's attempt to gain some votes in Quebec since the Conservatives surprised everyone during the last election and actually won some ridings over the tired old antics of the PQ.

There is very little threat of Quebec separatism gaining momentum as of today. There is a new, young generation of French Canadians who got the point after the economic nose-dive occurred post-1995 referendum.

Sure this muddies the waters a little, with Quebec always chomping at the bit to send a representative along with the Canadian one to international meetings. But they kept the 'within Canada' part, so I don't see this as a terrible thing, really. I'm not crazy about Harper, but I'm also not crazy about the Liberals right now either.

There is a BIG difference between 'nation' in a sociological sense, and a 'state' - what most people in this discussion are using the word nation as. Ahh, memories of last summer's international law classes.

Ormus said:
In other words, no matter how many favors and benefits that English Canada can give Québec, there's still the "indignity" of having to get permission from "the Other" for much of what you want to do. In the end, it's like a grown child having to ask permission from their parents before doing anything.

Well, that's just an outside view. Perhaps our Québécois here can tell me if I'm right or wrong here.

Honestly the relationship between all provinces and the federal government is that of grown children asking mummy and daddy for more money and favours. Everyone jockeys for position and postures to get more funding out of Ottawa. Not really a thing unique to Quebec, besides that in the past the leadership here uses the 'Distinct Society' moniker to wrangle a bit more than some other provinces.
 
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Canadiens1160 said:

There is a BIG difference between 'nation' in a sociological sense, and a 'state' - what most people in this discussion are using the word nation as. Ahh, memories of last summer's international law classes.

There is a difference. However, I think most people here are using the ambiguous definition that was thrown out by Harper and Ignatieff themselves.

Anyone watching the Liberal leadership race? This is almost as good as playoff hockey. :corn:
 
angelordevil said:


There is a difference. However, I think most people here are using the ambiguous definition that was thrown out by Harper and Ignatieff themselves.

Anyone watching the Liberal leadership race? This is almost as good as playoff hockey. :corn:

I was there working and let me tell you I felt like I was at a sporting event! It was a crazy day. Talking to people I felt there was an "everbody but Iggy" movement growing. However, none of us, at least early on were thinking that Dion had a chance.

I saw a lot of dejected Ignatieff and Rae people afterwards. I dunno what was seen on TV but from where I was standing(right in front of the stage) Rae looked like he was still in shock. During Dion's speech he complimented each candidate and they in turn gave a thumbs up, laughed, smile etc. Rae on the otherhand barely broke into a smile and seemed to be staring into space during 99% of Dion's speech.
 
Ormus said:


In other words, no matter how many favors and benefits that English Canada can give Québec, there's still the "indignity" of having to get permission from "the Other" for much of what you want to do. In the end, it's like a grown child having to ask permission from their parents before doing anything.

First of all, that's not really accurate because if you look at our amendment formula, for example, Quebec has a lot of power (in many instances can veto individually). Secondly, there are no restrictions on Quebec that are not placed on other provinces and you have places like Ontario and Alberta with their own issues and they are just as shit out of luck. Finally, the notwithstanding clause (which has been used by Quebec - repeatedly) really means that they're immune to pretty much anything the constitution may impose on them.
 
BonoManiac said:


I was there working and let me tell you I felt like I was at a sporting event! It was a crazy day. Talking to people I felt there was an "everbody but Iggy" movement growing. However, none of us, at least early on were thinking that Dion had a chance.

I saw a lot of dejected Ignatieff and Rae people afterwards. I dunno what was seen on TV but from where I was standing(right in front of the stage) Rae looked like he was still in shock. During Dion's speech he complimented each candidate and they in turn gave a thumbs up, laughed, smile etc. Rae on the otherhand barely broke into a smile and seemed to be staring into space during 99% of Dion's speech.

Wow! I'm officially envious...it must have been something to be there. Dion's rise is an amazing story, and I truly feel that the right guy won. I also noticed Rae's disappointment. It was palpable. I think over the last few days, things were ratcheting up in his favour, but then everything fell apart quickly today. It must be such a draining feeling, to have that euphoria of being so close to the prize, only to see it hover away beyond your grasp. I'm sure he'll be rewarded with a great position should the Liberals seize power. The same for Ignatieff.

Great day for Canada. :up:
 
anitram said:


Finally, the notwithstanding clause (which has been used by Quebec - repeatedly) really means that they're immune to pretty much anything the constitution may impose on them.

Actually, it's been used very rarely by Quebec. I think the last time was with the signage issue. It's also important to note that all provinces have access to this clause, and that it's used rarely by them, as well. While it continually dangles as a potential weapon, nobody's really pulled the trigger completely, I would argue.
 
I think it was interesting that it was such a tight race for the Liberal leadership, but frankly, none of them boosted my confidence in the party for the next election. I hope Dion surprises me.
 
angelordevil said:

Wow! I'm officially envious...it must have been something to be there.

It was a rush and very interesting. It was fun speculating about the eventual outcome with people on the floor. This was my first convention and hopefully not my last, although I wish I was working three years ago when Bono was the keynote speaker instead of Howard Dean this year.



I'm sure he'll be rewarded with a great position should the Liberals seize power. The same for Ignatieff.

I seriously doubt that either will run in the next election for a variety of reasons, one being their age. The future of the party is Kennedy, Brison and Martha Hall Findlay. I believe for both it was all or nothing and are not interested in simply being an MP. There is already some talk of Ignatieff going back to Harvard.
 
angelordevil said:


Actually, it's been used very rarely by Quebec. I think the last time was with the signage issue. It's also important to note that all provinces have access to this clause, and that it's used rarely by them, as well.

Um, no, it hasn't. They inserted the notwithstanding clause into EVERY piece of Quebec legislation in the 80s! How is that rarely? And it isn't the last time either.

And as for it being used rarely by other provinces - that's not true either. It's NEVER been used by anyone except Alberta (once) and I think SK may have used it once. The s.33 override is used essentially exclusively by Quebec and not in a way that any constitutional scholar would really classify as rare.
 
anitram said:
They inserted the notwithstanding clause into EVERY piece of Quebec legislation in the 80s!

That was the PQ's way of thumbing their noses at the feds for excluding Rene Levesque from the formation of the constitution. They inserted s.33 into everything because they could, not because they saw a need for it in all new Acts. The childishness stopped when the PQ was voted out.

anitram said:
And as for it being used rarely by other provinces - that's not true either. It's NEVER been used by anyone except Alberta (once) and I think SK may have used it once. The s.33 override is used essentially exclusively by Quebec and not in a way that any constitutional scholar would really classify as rare.

Other provincial attempts to use s.33 have either failed (marriage definition in AB) or been unnecessary (labour legislation in SK).

The only time s.33 was actually used and stood for the 5 year limit (in any province) was for Quebec's Bill 178 on exclusive French signage.
 
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AliEnvy said:

Other provincial attempts to use s.33 have either failed (marriage definition in AB)

No, Alberta's attempt passed, the issue was that Marriage and Divorce fall under federal jurisdiction. It may sound like semantics but it isn't. A good way of seeing the difference between this and an actual failed attempt is to look at Alberta's 1998 effort to override shield legislation.
 
Zoomerang96 said:
what are people's thoughts on dion becoming the new liberal leader?

The Liberals are obviously going to have some strife trying to get beyond all those years of Chrétien-Martin and their interrelated politics. No matter who they would have elected, the Liberals would still have had the tall order of redefining themselves for a new generation.

As Dion is a relative unknown, he has the benefit of being able to distance himself from all the controversies of the last two Liberal leaders. Michael Ignatieff, while superficially looking good for image purposes, probably would have ended up being too controversial of a figure.

So I guess the challenge now is for Dion to assert his authority and vision for the party, much in the way that Chrétien did back in 1993. Of course, people might be a bit more cynical this time around.
 
Ormus said:
I was thinking about Québec separatism today, and I started wondering how much of it has to do with issues of self-determination.

In other words, no matter how many favors and benefits that English Canada can give Québec, there's still the "indignity" of having to get permission from "the Other" for much of what you want to do. In the end, it's like a grown child having to ask permission from their parents before doing anything.

Well, that's just an outside view. Perhaps our Québécois here can tell me if I'm right or wrong here.


I think you are right. A lot of it is not very rational, in my opinion, it's mostly based on intangible emotions, and that feeling of 'us' being different from 'them' plays a huge part, although many souverainistes won't admit to that...


sulawesigirl4:

Yeah I am still in The Gambia. It's quite a nice place to live I must say, very easy going and I am 10 minutes walk from the beach:wink: That being said I prefer Senegal in many ways, more interesting culturally and politically. I am planning to visit Mali in the coming months, I heard great things about it!
 
AliEnvy said:


Am I not Québécoise?

Actually, I thought of that before asking it but like Harper says "they know who they are" so I don't know if you consider yourself a Quebecoise or not. And besides, you've lived in Ontario for so long that perhaps you consider yourself an Ontarian.

I grew up in Saskatchewan (not easy, being a French-Canadian!) and moved out of there 12 yrs ago as well but no longer consider myself a Saskatchewanarian.

It's not up to me to decide if you're Quebecoise or not - as everyone has said, it hasn't been properly defined. If you consider yourself one, then I would think you are.
Whether Parliament would consider you one is not up to me.
If we are talking here about the strict definition of Quebecoise (the not very inclusive one that I personally don't like, the "pure laine") well I've met you a few times and had no idea you speak French and considered yourself Quebecoise :)

On a different note, those who held the largest party Saturday night wasn't Dion and his people but the separatists in Quebec...
 
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