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Old 05-21-2006, 01:54 PM   #16
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Originally posted by roy keane
Bombing Dubrovnik is something that both Serbia and Montenegro should be blamed.Remember that at that time Milosevic had very strong political,military and finance support from Montenegro.Whatever he did,whatever decisions did he make , Montenegro was his support.They did try to play the "neutral third party" as anitram said, but facts are facts.At that time , did you hear any Montenegro official that raised his voice against it? I didn't.
Of course, I agree 100%.

The Montenegro government is trying to set themselves up as an innocent third party that played no part in the ethnic strife in the 90s. It is convenient for them to blame Serbia and Serbs in general for the atrocities committed, but when it comes to Dubrovnik, this is bullshit. Except in the eyes of the international community there is one guilty party and the other one got away scot free.

4U2Play, I'm not even going to get into the comments with you because frankly I disagree with most of what you wrote and your notion that I'm unfamiliar with the people and history of the region is really actually quite funny but I'm not going to bother pointing out why.
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Old 05-21-2006, 02:16 PM   #17
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As for Montenegro independency , frenkly i don't care,but i very much doubt that they will vote it.Many Montenegro people live in Serbia(Belgrade mostly),they are on very high positions in firms,banks,goverment... And 90% of Montenegro students come to Serbia to study.Very big part of those people left today to Montenegro to vote union state.Given the fact that Montenegro itself is divided i predict Serbia and Montenegro will last longer than expected.
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Old 05-21-2006, 02:38 PM   #18
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Originally posted by roy keane
As for Montenegro independency , frenkly i don't care,but i very much doubt that they will vote it.Many Montenegro people live in Serbia(Belgrade mostly),they are on very high positions in firms,banks,goverment... And 90% of Montenegro students come to Serbia to study.Very big part of those people left today to Montenegro to vote union state.Given the fact that Montenegro itself is divided i predict Serbia and Montenegro will last longer than expected.
If it only required a 50% majority, it would definitely pass. But it has to clear 55%, and most polling has shown its at around 52% to 53%.
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Old 05-21-2006, 02:40 PM   #19
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Yes with 50% it would pass
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Old 05-21-2006, 02:47 PM   #20
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Weary Serbs watch Montenegro vote

Sunday, May 21, 2006; Posted: 8:59 a.m. EDT (12:59 GMT)



BELGRADE, Serbia-Montenegro (AP) -- If Montenegro decides Sunday to split from Serbia, the union's larger republic by default becomes independent too.

It is a decision Serbs have no say in and unlike the suspense accompanying Montenegro's historic vote, the mood in Serbia was mostly that of resignation, mixed with bitterness.

"Montenegro is deciding our fate for us," analyst Bosko Jaksic said in a commentary published in the Politika daily. "Serbia can only watch as the scale tips one way or the other."

For Jaksic, the outcome of Montenegro's independence referendum could be the "last nail in the coffin" of the country that was once Yugoslavia. "Maybe it is time to bury the past, firmly and forever," he said.

Others were more indignant.

"Let Montenegro go, this marriage never worked anyway," said Danka Krivokuca, a 29-year-old Belgrade economist. "Our union was in agony from the start, it is time to end it."

Montenegro stayed with its traditional ally, Serbia, when the former six-republic Yugoslav federation broke up in a series of bloody Balkan wars of the 1990s. But their relations later soured as a pro-independence drive in Montenegro gained strength, climaxing in Sunday's referendum.

Before the vote, Serbian officials and church leaders have called on Montenegrins to reject independence, invoking deep historical, religious and traditional links between the republics. Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica cited a "togetherness ... inseparable in its innumerable ties and deeply intertwining lives" of the two peoples.

For hundreds of thousands of Serbia's citizens who hail from Montenegro, those ties are very real.

Slobodan Bulatovic, 61, failed to lose his strong Montenegrin accent despite having lived for 40 years in Serbia, where he studied, married and raised a family. He regularly goes back to his native town of Bijelo Polje, in northern Montenegro, to visit his sister and many relatives.

"It is like your heart is in one place and your soul in the other," said Bulatovic, a tourism entrepreneur in Belgrade. "With independence, a border will come up, and with it new barriers. But can a person separate his heart from his soul?"

Concerns have also increased that the loss of Montenegro would further destabilize Kostunica's already shaky minority government, which has claimed that the union stands a better chance of someday achieving the much coveted membership in the European Union.

But the head judge of Serbia's Constitutional Court, Slobodan Vucetic, believes Serbia could easily declare its own independence in parliament within days of a secession by Montenegro.

"Serbia can make a smooth transition to a sovereign country," he said. "Serbia is legally the union's heir and would automatically assume all posts held by the union in international organizations."

However, Serbia's strategic position in the Balkans would significantly change if the Adriatic republic of 620,00 secedes. With an 8 million strong population, Serbia will become a landlocked state overnight, making a makeover of the army and navy -- with no sea left to guard -- inevitable.

Underscoring Serbia's lack of role in Montenegro's decision, the G17Plus party from Kostunica's governing coalition staged mock referendums Sunday at several squares in Belgrade, inviting residents to "cast ballots" for an independent Serbia.

"We want this symbolic action to show we care," said Goran Kreclovic, one of the event organizers. "Serbs should also have a say in what kind of country they want to live in."

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe....ap/index.html
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Old 05-21-2006, 03:55 PM   #21
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First unofficial results 56,3%.I guess Montenegro is becoming indipendent
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Old 05-21-2006, 07:13 PM   #22
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If it only required a 50% majority, it would definitely pass. But it has to clear 55%, and most polling has shown its at around 52% to 53%.

Quote:
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The unofficial results found that 55.3 percent of voters opted for the change, Journalist Bruce Konviser said. That's slightly more than the 55 percent approval that the European Union said was required for passage.
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Old 05-21-2006, 07:15 PM   #23
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If it only required a 50% majority, it would definitely pass. But it has to clear 55%, and most polling has shown its at around 52% to 53%.
So, what do the Kurds need to do for their autonmy?
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Old 05-21-2006, 07:53 PM   #24
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So, what do the Kurds need to do for their autonmy?
The Kurds already have some level of autonomy. Montenegro is not voting for autonomy, its voting for independence.
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Old 05-22-2006, 01:06 AM   #25
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OK, now that it's a done deal, who is next?

Will Scotland ever vote to secede from the UK?

What about Wales?

What happens if the Albanian minority wants to secede from Montenegro? How about the Hungarian minority in Vojvodina, and the Albanians in Kosovo? Don't they deserve countries, too?

More importantly, how will all these new mini-states affect the Eurovision Song Contest next year?
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Old 05-22-2006, 01:30 AM   #26
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Originally posted by 4U2Play
What happens if the Albanian minority wants to secede from Montenegro? How about the Hungarian minority in Vojvodina, and the Albanians in Kosovo? Don't they deserve countries, too?
If you believe in the right to self-determination (as I do), then yes.
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Old 05-22-2006, 02:11 AM   #27
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Originally posted by 4U2Play
OK, now that it's a done deal, who is next?

Will Scotland ever vote to secede from the UK?

What about Wales?

What happens if the Albanian minority wants to secede from Montenegro? How about the Hungarian minority in Vojvodina, and the Albanians in Kosovo? Don't they deserve countries, too?

More importantly, how will all these new mini-states affect the Eurovision Song Contest next year?
Final results probably won't come until late tomorrow, so its still not official yet that Montenegro is going to secede.

Its a difficult question. In general, I think there has to be some sort of legitimate reason for seccession, otherwise any city or territory could vote to secede at any time, which would be total chaos. Yugoslavia broke apart partly because of the undemocratic actions of the Serbs in the government. When a certain territory or group of territories is denied certain rights available to others in the country, or the country is not a democracy, then I think one can start to make and arguement for seccession.

Scotland has been a part of the United Kingdom for so long that I doubt that they will actually secede. They agreed to union in 1700 I believe. Wales agreed to union in 1500. The real question is in the 21st century, what would secession actually change in the context of the United Kingdom? Scotland has been apart of this democracy for the past 300 years, and they were not treated during that time the way the Irish were treated in Ireland. Irelands drive for independence at the start of the 20th century is totally understandable. Most people in Ireland were not able to own land until the 20th century.


With Kosovo, I would say it could be only a matter of time before they get independence. The country is 91% ethnic Albanian and had to live through the ethnic clensing horror of the 1990s. Its still far from certain though. 20 years and a dramatically improved economic and political environment could change a lot of things. If NATO allows it, it would indeed happen.

Albanian seccession from Montenegro will only happen if Kosovo secedes from Serbia.

From what I have heard about Vojvodina, the Hungarian minority is too small and mixed in with the rest of the population for there to be seccession.
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Old 05-22-2006, 02:05 PM   #28
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Its Official, Montenegro is a new country!


http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe...nce/index.html
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Old 05-22-2006, 02:13 PM   #29
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Montenegro was republic.Kosovo wasn't, neither is Vojvodina.As for Montenegro Albanians,they also look for a part of territory as well as in Greece and Macedonia.There will be more divisions in Balkan, be sure.
About UK, i'm almost sure that if there was referendum in Scotland, most of people would vote to stay within Kingdom
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Old 05-22-2006, 02:35 PM   #30
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Originally posted by roy keane
Montenegro was republic.Kosovo wasn't, neither is Vojvodina.As for Montenegro Albanians,they also look for a part of territory as well as in Greece and Macedonia.There will be more divisions in Balkan, be sure.
About UK, i'm almost sure that if there was referendum in Scotland, most of people would vote to stay within Kingdom
Montenegrin Albanians look to become part of a future independent Kosovo, not territory in Greece and Macedonia. There are Kosovo Albanians who have claims on parts of Macedonia, but not Greece I don't believe since they don't share a border.

The only other division I can see happening is Kosovo becoming an independent state. While it was not a republic before, it is less ethnicly mixed than any of the Republics and is essentially under NATO control at the moment. If Kosovo does not become independent, it will likely have some form of republic or other autonomous status within Serbia.
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