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Old 06-22-2007, 12:42 PM   #46
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Originally posted by joyfulgirl


How did you get that from her post? Americans are fatter and unhealthier than their European counterparts (that's a fact), and she prefers their health system to ours. Where's the hatred?
False generalizations like " a uniquely American demand ..." and fatter/unhealthier (and using "you" - me? really?).
The role of diet is ignored, and Europeans are getting fatter and unhealthier as their diet goes downhill.

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A majority of adults are obese or overweight in most European Union nations and kids increasingly contributing to make Europe a fat continent, the EU's top public health official said Wednesday.

"The numbers are frightening," said EU Health Commissioner Markos Kyprianou.

Bad diets based on fatty and sweet ingredients combined with physical laziness by now account for six of the seven top factors leading to bad health, Kyprianou said.
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Old 06-23-2007, 10:14 AM   #47
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The Brits freeload on American technology. Being regulated to death is the reason the once-vibrant European pharmaceutical industry has been lapped by its U.S. counterpart in the last few decades.
Actually there was a news report here the other week about how the NHS is one of the world's leading developers of new cures/drugs/treatments* yet it can't afford to buy these new developments once they've created them. The reporter actually went to France to meet a British citizen who was having to travel to France to be treated with a cancer drug that, although developed by the NHS, was unavailable on the NHS due to it not being 'cost effective'.

That's what really hacks me off about discussions about universal healthcare- there are real problems with it. (Personally, I think one of the biggest issues with the NHS is the control of Primary Care Trusts that ensure big differences between treatments offered in one county that aren't available in others. And the way that Scotland's NHS now seems to be becoming radically different from the NHS in the rest of the UK. How can it afford to offer so many things for free if the rest of us can't manage it?!). And yet instead of pointing out and discussing the real, major problems, commentators seem instead to focus on problems that don't actually exist in a bid to play on people's fears and patriotism.



*Speaking of which, I know this is a bit off-topic but remember that UK developed cervical cancer vaccine thread we had ages ago? Well, the NHS seems to have finally decided to give all girls aged 12-13 the vaccine starting next autumn

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6768427.stm
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Old 06-23-2007, 11:45 AM   #48
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Originally posted by joyfulgirl
I waited three months in the US for surgery I absolutely needed last fall, and during the wait, I was in the emergency room three times. The reason I had to wait so long is because there is only one surgeon in the entire country who does this particular procedure. Why? Because this procedure is 100% effective in saving a woman's reproductive organs, making hysterectomies completely unnecessary except when there's cancer. But there's too much money to be made in performing hysterectomies so let's not have this other procedure covered by insurance.

The healthcare system in the US sucks big time. I'm looking forward to seeing "Sicko."
That extends to research as well. There are always people whose quality of life or life expectancy could improve, but big Pharma cannot profit from R&D or from continuing to produce drugs that are used by a handful or a hundred of people a year. This is a common problem - and what do you do? You can't force them to produce the drugs and because they have patents, you can't outsource the production to government run research facilities. So you're in a lose-lose.

Big Pharma is absolutely disgusting and there is no reason why a country of a stature of US should allow them to run their healthcare system. When I still worked in research (leukemia & breast cancer), the vast majority of our funding came from American pharmaceutical companies. What they would do is give sizeable grants (to a small lab of under 15 or 20 people, these are sizeable...) in the order of $450K or $200K, etc. We'd then do the preliminary research for them, and if you came upon something that was promising, they'd take the research over from you, optimize the final steps and send it to clinical trials. So in effect it's what Nike does overseas - produces shoes for $4 and then brings them back and sells them for $100. They'd have very low R&D costs, but would make ridiculous profits off them. Pharma would like you to believe they're expending $2 billion on a drug...sometimes they are, but increasingly the scut work, the stuff that costs them tons of money because it's labour intensive and it can last 2-5 years, is done by lab techs, many not even in the US, who are working for $25/hr.
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Old 06-23-2007, 05:20 PM   #49
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Which only goes to show that Fox IS fair and balanced and have no problem giving credit where credit is due and they don't bash anyone just for the sake of bashing.......

Fox News ROCKS!!!!!
Very funny.

Sicko got a 93% rating on Rotten Tomatoes as of yesterday... I hope to see it soon. Hopefully this will be the 'An Inconvenient Truth' of our healthcare system.

Relating to the post that I quoted, it is common knowledge that The Daily Show with Jon Stewart is the most legit source of news nowadays (honestly, I've never seen them cover the Paris Hilton junk more than in passing like cable news does).
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Old 06-24-2007, 04:52 AM   #50
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I saw it today. I cried for basically half the movie. Especially the story about the woman who's husband died because they claimed his marrow surgery with his brother was "experimental" and refused to pay for it. HOW DARE THEY take someone's obviously heading downhill fast life and toy with it for MONEY? For fucks sake, what a hundred thousand less in your BILLIONS of profit, if this man could live, and be a husband, borther, son and father. His death ruined LIVES and they just don't care. Another profit win for some fucking stupid medical company.

I mean here in Australia we have medicare, and its not as good as it used to be re: bulk billing and the life, but a firend of mine found a lump in one of his testicles, and went to the doctor. The doctor immediately sent him to get an xray, which then turned into an mri scan. It was confirmed as a tumour, the next day he got it cut out. He then went into 3 months of daily radiation treatment. He paid NOTHING for it. He has no private insurance, but medicare covered the LOT. He lived. His life - no ones life should be costed!

Also this pre condition stuff is bullshit! Basically they're saying 'sorry you're a bad risk and we can't make money from you so fuck off and die' Especially being too fat - you know some people can't help but be overweight. And you know what, for most of them its not a problem - you can have a BMI of OVER 25 and still live to 100 and be healthy as shit. If we start saying 'too fat' are we going to say 'oh well you drive a car, and people get in accidents so we won't insure you' or 'oh you work in a building, a plane might crash into it like sept 11 so we won't insure you'

and i fucking LOVE how this has turned into 'another liberal michael moore issue' can't people see BEYOND their fucking political views and see that this is nation wide?! It affects EVERYONE and people just boil it down to red or blue. I mean, how fucking stupid can a society get. Where are your VOICES screaming against this injustice and MURDER of citizens for PROFIT? Are americans really as fucking greedy, selfish and moronic as half the world thinks? Why can't the anger be pouring into something and USED rather then waste it?

Absolutely horrfying. I can't even compute how sad and angry i am right now.
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Old 06-24-2007, 05:45 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by ntalwar


False generalizations like " a uniquely American demand ..." and fatter/unhealthier (and using "you" - me? really?).
The role of diet is ignored, and Europeans are getting fatter and unhealthier as their diet goes downhill.

I'm sure anitram can defend herself.....it is still a fact that Europeans are healthier and thinner...the obesity issue is getting worse, but we are still thinner and healthier. I'm sure the 'you' she was was using was for all Americans, not specifically you.

People here are so pernickety
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Old 06-24-2007, 10:56 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by LJT

it is still a fact that Europeans are healthier and thinner...the obesity issue is getting worse, but we are still thinner and healthier.

Is that a result of the health care systems(the topic of this thread), or something else - diet, exercise, income level, etc?
Do doctors keep us thin?

Quote:
Originally posted by LJT

People here are so pernickety
Like you?
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Old 06-24-2007, 11:29 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
Are americans really as fucking greedy, selfish and moronic as half the world thinks?


yes. it's all true. believe everything.
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Old 06-24-2007, 11:37 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy


And you know what, for most of them its not a problem - you can have a BMI of OVER 25 and still live to 100 and be healthy as shit. If we start saying 'too fat' are we going to say 'oh well you drive a car, and people get in accidents so we won't insure you' or 'oh you work in a building, a plane might crash into it like sept 11 so we won't insure you'
and i fucking LOVE how this has turned into 'another liberal michael moore issue' can't people see BEYOND their fucking political views and see that this is nation wide?! It affects EVERYONE and people just boil it down to red or blue. I mean, how fucking stupid can a society get. Where are your VOICES screaming against this injustice and MURDER of citizens for PROFIT? Are americans really as fucking greedy, selfish and moronic as half the world thinks? Why can't the anger be pouring into something and USED rather then waste it?

Absolutely horrfying. I can't even compute how sad and angry i am right now.
When you say you can have a BMI over 25 and live to one hundred, do you mean a BMI that's slightly higher or really high like 35? How many large people do you see living til 100 or even 70? Look at the elderly population, the overwhelming majority of them are not overweight. Being overweight is the leading cause of premature death in this country.

My voice will not scream out against the system due to this movie. This issues are much more complicated than Michael Moore could ever present. I admit to not having seen the movie, but it's quite naive to think that this movie is going to have all of the answers. Regardless of what system is put into place, their will always be the problem of allocation of resources. Healthcare is like any other commodity and their is not always enough to go around. You may not like that idea, but it is a fact. The best thing we can do is to help ensure that is gets allocated in a fair manner, but some people will always get more and better care than others. Michael Moore may start up some discussion, but is he going to spur on an overhaul of the system? Absolutely not.
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Old 06-24-2007, 11:54 AM   #55
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Irvine, i'm not just blindly believing everything I see or read. I know that the majority of americans are pretty decent people, like all societies. I just think that your image in the world is really bad, and no one seems to be doing anything to counteract that.
Why do you always have to take that im bashing the us or something and suddenly your patroitism kicks in and you have to bite back? This is nothing to do with who;s country is best or whatever, its the fact that a country prides itself on being such a free society, and yet, you're not as much as you believe you are, and more and more things are becoming apparent.

I also know that Michael Moore smudges a few things, he likes a bit of sensationlism just like fox news etc, i am not hailing his as the messiah or right and wrong. BUT i feel he raises a few bloody big red flags in his films, and yet suddenly its wrong to question?

I just think if you're sick and you can be helped, you deserve it, regardless of your lifestyle, your wealth, or your nationality. I don't want to live in a world where profit is more important then human life, and its already too late for that.
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Old 06-24-2007, 12:05 PM   #56
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People ARE questioning it. People ARE trying to raise awareness and do what they can to make the health care system better. It's not like all Americans are sitting around here on our "fucking greedy, selfish and moronic" asses not caring. (And don't act surprised when people bristle and respond to those kind of generalizations, okay?)

Some states are taking their own steps to see that more people in their states have health coverage. It's not just the health care system itself that's the problem, it's the staggering number of Americans who have no health care at all.

Some employers are doing what they can to provide affordable health coverage for their employees, full time AND part time. My employer does that, and guess what? We don't have a clause for pre-existing conditions. If you have one, you can still get coverage.

It IS frustrating, and it IS angering to see all the problems, particularly people going into bankruptcy due to medical bills. I'm not going to pretend to know all the answers or even try and understand why it's so difficult to fix the system, but it's just not the case that we're all just sitting here in blissful ignorance and now here comes Michael Moore on his white horse to show us all the error of our ways.

Of course it's okay to question things. Just don't call us "fucking greedy, selfish and moronic".
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Old 06-24-2007, 12:23 PM   #57
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errr i never said you were selfish, greedy and moronic, i said a lot of people in the world see you that way. Unfortuantely most stereotypes have some truth in it. Greedy - you have the highest obesity levels in the world, selfish - you are the richest, biggest capatilist society in the world with no proper healthcare or social service system in place, moronic - 54 million people voted for an idiot and even more just sat at home and did a whole lot of nothing on the one day they might have made a difference No one country is perfect, here in australia, we're heading down the shit path at a pretty fast rate as well!
Like i said, i know a lot of people in the us are doing fine, and are fine but seriously, if you're happy being the most powerful richest country in the world, and pride itself on its liberties then back it up.

I'm not going to feel apologetic that i cried at some people who have been fucked over by a government that preaches one thing and does another.

I'm not pissing on your flag, i'm not shitting on your ideals, im questioning that why the most advanced, intelligent country in the world can get something so basic and decent like healthcare so very very wrong.
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Old 06-24-2007, 12:26 PM   #58
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Generalizations... got to love them.
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Old 06-24-2007, 12:26 PM   #59
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Originally posted by corianderstem
My employer does that, and guess what? We don't have a clause for pre-existing conditions. If you have one, you can still get coverage.
Good point. I haven't seen the film yet, so I can't comment on that scene. But the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act at least partially prohibits insurers from denying coverage for preexisting conditions (for group coverage).
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Old 06-24-2007, 12:37 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
Greedy - you have the highest obesity levels in the world
Although in some societies being overweight is a sign of status, that's not the case in the US.

Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
selfish - you are the richest, biggest capatilist society in the world with no proper healthcare or social service system in place
Blame the politicians for that.

Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
moronic - 54 million people voted for an idiot and even more just sat at home and did a whole lot of nothing on the one day they might have made a difference
Blame the politicians and Karl Rove for that.
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