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Old 02-16-2003, 08:18 AM   #46
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hey FizzingW's, I'm going to merge your thread into this one, as London had such a great turnout.
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Old 02-16-2003, 08:51 AM   #47
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That's amazing.
Thanks Anitram.
Ant to those who say it won't change a thing:life's too short to
give up,at least you're given the choice to try or not to try.
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Old 02-16-2003, 12:51 PM   #48
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I'm starting to forget where I've posted my demonstration notes. We had about 500 here in Birmingham, in the U.S. South where we don't have alot of anti-war demonstrations, to say the least as it's a bastion of conservativism. Except for one nut people were polite and respected our rights. There were 28 speakers, poets, and singers. Unfortunately I didn't manage to stay for the whole thing, I was running a fever and felt like hell. So I left a bit early. I hated to because I was having fun but the fever wasn't fun. But I'm so glad I went!
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Old 02-16-2003, 08:28 PM   #49
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OK i am just wondering something. I am not for a war in Iraq but doesnt anyone else here think that only protesting againist the war is the right thing to do.

Why arent there 100 million out protesting about Saddam killing his own people? I was wondering if anyone that went to the rallies if you heard any of the speakers telling Saddam to complie and to stop being such a harsh dictator? I support rallies but shouldnt you be fair to the whole situation. Could this not all be solved if Saddam just let the inspectors do their jobs?

Oh and by the way, the only way Blair gets re-elected is if Saddam attacks Uk and Blair retaliates and makes that seem like the reason he wanted to go into Iraq.
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Old 02-16-2003, 08:48 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by bonoman
OK i am just wondering something. I am not for a war in Iraq but doesnt anyone else here think that only protesting againist the war is the right thing to do.

Why arent there 100 million out protesting about Saddam killing his own people? I was wondering if anyone that went to the rallies if you heard any of the speakers telling Saddam to complie and to stop being such a harsh dictator? I support rallies but shouldnt you be fair to the whole situation. Could this not all be solved if Saddam just let the inspectors do their jobs?

Oh and by the way, the only way Blair gets re-elected is if Saddam attacks Uk and Blair retaliates and makes that seem like the reason he wanted to go into Iraq.
yeah exactly. by the way, the "peace ralliers" punched cops and toppled a horse in new york. way to go.

at others, they burned american flags and chanted "death to america and israel"

something to be proud of, really. I mean, that's giving peace a chance.

ok so, let's find an alternative to war. do it the right way. and again, this WOULD NOT BE HAPPENING if saddam cut the crap and just obeyed the un mandates.
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Old 02-16-2003, 09:14 PM   #51
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WOW. I am speechless.
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Old 02-16-2003, 09:52 PM   #52
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
to London.

I am amazed.

What is Blair gonna do now... this pseudo social, neoliberal asshole?
Hehe, not to mention Fabian society elitist, and ever-spewer of uber-intellectual John Ruskin's collectivist ideologies.
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Old 02-17-2003, 09:42 PM   #53
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Um this was a letter sent to " this pseudo social neo-liberal asshole" Blair by an Iraqi ex-patriate...

I want to ask those who support the anti - "war" movement (apart from pacifists - that is a totally different situation) their motives and reasoning behind such support. You may feel that America is trying to blind you from seeing the truth about their real reasons for an invasion. I must argue that in fact, you are still blind to the bigger truths in Iraq. I must ask you to consider the following questions:

Saddam has murdered more than a million Iraqis over the past 30 years, are you willing to allow him to kill another million Iraqis?

Out of a population of 20 million, 4 million Iraqis have been forced to flee their country during Saddam's reign. Are you willing to ignore the real and present danger that caused so many people to leave their homes and families?

Saddam rules Iraq using fear - he regularly imprisons, executes and tortures the mass population for no reason whatsoever - this may be hard to believe and you may not even appreciate the extent of such barbaric acts, but believe me you will be hard pressed to find a family in Iraq who have not had a son/father/brother killed, imprisoned, tortured and/or "disappeared" due to Saddam's regime. What has been stopping you from taking to the streets to protest against such blatant crimes against humanity in the past?

Saddam gassed thousands of political prisoners in one of his campaigns to "cleanse" prisons - why are you not protesting against this barbaric act?

An example of the dictator's policy you are trying to save - Saddam has made a law to give excuse to any man to rape a female relative and then murder her in the name of adultery. Do you still want to march to keep him in power? . . . .

Of course it would be ideal if an invasion could be undertaken, not by the Americans, but by, say, the Nelson Mandela International Peace Force. That's not on offer. The Iraqi people cannot wait until such a force materialises; they have been forced to take what they're given. That such a force does not exist - cannot exist - in today's world is a failing of the very people who do not want America to invade Iraq, yet are willing to let thousands of Iraqis to die in order to gain the higher moral ground. Do not continue to punish the Iraqi people because you are "unhappy" with the amount of power the world is at fault for allowing America to wield. Do not use the Iraqi people as a pawn in your game for moral superiority -one loses that right when one allows a monster like Saddam to rule for 30 years without so much as protesting against his rule.
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Old 02-17-2003, 09:46 PM   #54
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excellent letter
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Old 02-17-2003, 10:04 PM   #55
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Awhile back some of the Kurds were supporting a war because you're right, Saddam has treated them like . Recently some of these have gotten irked because they claim that the government has backed off of some of their democratization promises. I mean, these guys had better put their money where their mouth is. What's the guarantee that an invasion will get rid of Saddam? The first one did not, obviously; two attacks on Serbia didn't bounce Slobodan Milosovic. They only kicked Milosovic out after a botched political election which elected a new president, a screwy economy and Serbian resolve kicked hiim out and sent him to the Hague. I'd support a war if I really thought it would get rid of Saddam. I honestly don't think so. Quite a few people don't think so. I wish it were otherwise.
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Old 02-17-2003, 10:19 PM   #56
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This PLEBA girl is going home. I only got involved in this debate because I have such strong feelings about it. I respect the views of people who don't agree; many of the arguments are very logical. I am no supporter of Saddam Hussein. I'm also no lover of controversy. I hate it. It's sort of incongruous for a U2 fan to hate controversy, I suppose, but dammit I'm an autistic. We don't thrive on this stuff. I enjoyed my visit! See ya around, I guess.
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Old 02-17-2003, 11:25 PM   #57
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Well that letter says it all.

Where all the anti-war people now
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Old 02-18-2003, 02:14 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by bonoman
OK i am just wondering something. I am not for a war in Iraq but doesnt anyone else here think that only protesting againist the war is the right thing to do.

Why arent there 100 million out protesting about Saddam killing his own people? I was wondering if anyone that went to the rallies if you heard any of the speakers telling Saddam to complie and to stop being such a harsh dictator?
Ah, but you see, unless it's the people of our own nations who are getting killed or doing the killing, we file it under Someone Else's Problem.
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Old 02-18-2003, 08:58 AM   #59
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No, that letter is not brilliant and doesn┤t say it all.

The anti war protesters don┤t leave a shadow of doubt that they are against Saddam┤s political leadership to.

Plus there are some options of removing him, instead of fighting a war and inflaming the whole region.

The most natural option would be if the Iraqis got up to fight for their right, do a revolution, and overthrow Saddam, then decide they want a democratic system, etc. etc.

The U.S. has no right at all to decide for the Iraqi people. Iraqis have to be strong enough to fight for themselves, if they want to remove him. In fact, there exists an opposition movement, from what I hear.

The U.S. foreign policy is not famous at all for installing democratic leaders, but famous for installing dictators (see Latin America). So, the ppl who are protesting for peace, know that the situation for Iraqi civil society will very probably stay about the same shit, because it is not the US interest to make all the world peaceful and democratic (like your propaganda always tries to tell you), but to keep control over as many regions as possible. Keeping control is easier with another dicatatorship (one that plays by the rules of America, though) than with an independent democratic government.

Print out your letter and send it to me, I know what to use it for.
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Old 02-18-2003, 11:38 AM   #60
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Thank you for mentioning exile as an option. I agree with it. So does the business community in Switzerland, hardly a bastion of radical political activities. Those people are very conservative. If you hate taxes and a strong centralized government, you'll love Switzerland. There is a rumor going around the Swiss about people cutting a deal for exile for Saddam and avoiding blowing up the Middle East. I'd bet serious bucks that some of these Swiss business people were in that demonstration in Bern. Heck, I recognized the main drag in Bern in the picture. I love that city.
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