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Old 03-15-2004, 05:10 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2


I think it is fair and accurate to describe the vote for this Socialist government as an attempt to appease terrorist. The Perception by many people in Spain is that if they were not involved in the removal and disarmament of Saddam, the terrorist attack would not of happened. It was a surprise that the PP was defeated and no doubt, the terrorist actions produced this outcome.
The vote is NOT an attempt to appease the terrorists, to suggest so insults the people of Spain who have democratically elected a party that reflects and reflected their desire NOT to participate in the war against Iraq which they felt was unjust.

Sting2, this is not a question of IF it was right or not, but a question of the will of the people.

Your suggestion is also insulting because the response to the attack here has been incredible. Madrid was not empty the day after, it was full with 2.5 million people in mourning and in defiance of what happened. They refuse to live in fear. Nobody called for war, nobody called for hot headed vengeance. I am in awe and amazed by the clear headed determination of the general public. People here want to fight terrorism, but not in the way Bush has chosen to do so. Come and look these people in the eye and tell them they are appeasing terrorists. This country has 800 casualties from ETA, and a long history of dealing with terrorism.

The terrorist actions did not produce the outcome the election, what produced the outcome were the actions of the PP. Their actions clearly went against the will of the people of Spain when they signed on to Bush's war. As many people demonstrated in anti-war protests, as did in the demonstrations this past Friday. The bombing only drove the point home. The final blow was when the PP tried to hide the evidence pointing to al-Qaeda and tried to blame ETA. If it was ETA, the PP would have won the election, which is why they lied. They knew the attack was because of Spain's participation in the war.

It cannot be suggested that the Socialist victory is somehow lessened by the bombing. Anyway you paint it, it is a political event which reflects the foreign policy of the PP.
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Old 03-15-2004, 05:35 PM   #92
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Excellent post iacrobat.
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Old 03-15-2004, 05:50 PM   #93
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I just need some clarification,,, are you opposed to actions against al-Qaeda?

It seems to me that if you feel that the government is responsible for the actions of terrorists.

I am not TRYING to put words into your mouth. I am curious.
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Old 03-15-2004, 06:08 PM   #94
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No, I am not opposed to actions against al-Qaeda, though I don't believe military actions are the ONLY solution to terrorism. I think if as much money was spent on alleviating poverty and seeking dialogue as is spent on war, we'd be a lot closer to a solution.

What I am saying is that the Spanish people did not agree with the war against Iraq. The PP dragged them in to the war kicking and screaming. I am saying the actions of the PP and the actions of the terrorists are related. If the PP did as the people wanted, I think it is fair to say there would have been no attack.

I should qualify this a bit as well. I believe the PP finally lost the election because they misled people on who was behind the action, recognising that it would influence the election. If they had been open from the beginning, it is quite possible that they could have won the election.

hi Fizzingwhizzbies, I haven't around very much, but I am trying to change that.
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Old 03-15-2004, 06:17 PM   #95
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Interesting, most of the 9-11 terrorists came from a very wealthy country. al-Qaeda isn't interested in dialoge - they produce change by creating fear of future attacks. It would be hard to believe that the attacks did not influence the election.
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Old 03-15-2004, 06:20 PM   #96
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I am not saying the attacks didn't influence the election.
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Old 03-15-2004, 06:34 PM   #97
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I think it is wrong to not hold terrorists accountable for their actions and hold a governement responsible.

When a group of people allow terrorsits to influence a political change then the terrorists have claimed a small victory. Apparently the election was going to re-elect the powers that be according to polls days before. I wonder how it would have played out without the attack. If the Spanish people were being dragged kicking and screaming, the election would not have been as close as the polls were indication prior to the 11th.

al-Qaeda is not the champion of the poor...And again, if Iraq were the issue, Britain has a much bigger bullseye.
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Old 03-15-2004, 06:43 PM   #98
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I do remember seeing the demonstrators in Spain on February 15 opposing the invasion of Iraq. That probably doesn't tell the complete story of the election, but that's impossible given that there was that controversy over the government's handling of the information about the terrorists.
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Old 03-15-2004, 08:45 PM   #99
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iacrobat,

"The vote is NOT an attempt to appease the terrorists, to suggest so insults the people of Spain who have democratically elected a party that reflects and reflected their desire NOT to participate in the war against Iraq which they felt was unjust."

The PP was about to win the election according to polls until the terrorist strike. Clearly, the terrorist strike influenced enough people to vote for this new government which plans to abandon Iraq and democracy in the middle east with its planned withdrawal of Spanish forces from Iraq. Many people in Spain clearly feel that their association with the USA caused the terrorist action last week and believe that by disassociating itself with the USA, they can avoid another terrorist attack of this magnitude. Appeasement indeed.

"Sting2, this is not a question of IF it was right or not, but a question of the will of the people."

No, it is a question of the will of a plurality of the people. Its unfortunate that their choice is appeasement.

"Your suggestion is also insulting because the response to the attack here has been incredible. Madrid was not empty the day after, it was full with 2.5 million people in mourning and in defiance of what happened. They refuse to live in fear. Nobody called for war, nobody called for hot headed vengeance. I am in awe and amazed by the clear headed determination of the general public. People here want to fight terrorism, but not in the way Bush has chosen to do so. Come and look these people in the eye and tell them they are appeasing terrorists. This country has 800 casualties from ETA, and a long history of dealing with terrorism."

I imagine a large number of those people who marched the day after voted for the PP and not the appeasement policies of this new government. I dare any of those people who voted for this new government to look into the eyes of Iraqi people and tell them why the Spanish troops who have served them so well along soldiers from dozens of other nations are now being sent home. How will withdrawing Spanish troops from Iraq help the situation there or combat terrorism?

"The terrorist actions did not produce the outcome the election, what produced the outcome were the actions of the PP. Their actions clearly went against the will of the people of Spain when they signed on to Bush's war. As many people demonstrated in anti-war protests, as did in the demonstrations this past Friday. The bombing only drove the point home. The final blow was when the PP tried to hide the evidence pointing to al-Qaeda and tried to blame ETA. If it was ETA, the PP would have won the election, which is why they lied. They knew the attack was because of Spain's participation in the war."

The PP can't lie about what is has not been established as unquestionable fact yet. The bombing occured 3 days before the election. Its absurd to believe that the government covered anything up in such a short period of time.

The PP was ahead in the polls prior to the Terrorist Bombing. It appears that if it is Al Quada that they indeed planned this bombing to influence the outcome of the election. 41% of voters gave Al Quada what they were seeking, a government that withdraws from Iraq and plans to fight terrorism the way it was fought in the 1990s prior to 9/11.
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Old 03-16-2004, 01:21 AM   #100
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CNN also has obtained a document posted on an Internet message board analysts believe is used by al Qaeda and its sympathizers that spells out the terrorist group's plan to separate Spain from the U.S.-led coalition on Iraq.

The strategy spelled out in the document, posted last December on the Internet, calls for the use of terrorism to drive Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's Popular Party from power and replace it with the Socialists.

That was expected to drive a wedge between Washington and Madrid and result in the withdrawal of Spanish military forces from Iraq.

"We think the Spanish government will not stand more than two blows, or three at the most, before it will be forced to withdraw because of the public pressure on it," the document says.

"If its forces remain after these blows, the victory of the Socialist Party will be almost guaranteed -- and the withdrawal of Spanish forces will be on its campaign manifesto."

That prediction came to fruition in elections Sunday, with the Socialists unseating the Popular Party three days after near-simultaneous bombings of four trains killed 200 and shocked the nation.
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Old 03-16-2004, 12:40 PM   #101
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I don't know what the motivation of the spanish people was in these elections

I do know that I can't help but to look at it as a small victory for al Qaeda
even if I do so for the wrong reasons,
that doesn't change that it's how it seems to me and I doubt that I'm the only one
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Old 03-17-2004, 06:04 AM   #102
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I don't see it as definitely being one thing or the other.

It's a victory to AQ in symbolic terms. It certainly LOOKS like they had the effect, and thats all they need, even if in reality it wasn't the full reason. I certainly don't think a single Spaniard voted that way as an appeasement to AQ. They may not have realised how this symbolicaly looks in that regard. It most likely was simply a protest vote against a government that took a country into a war, despite 90%+ of the population saying they wanted Spain to be no part of it. And a government that was seen as one that fumbled and lied and deceived about it's intentions for going into that war, and even in the day or two between the bombing and the election, continued to fumble and lie. That is what I think was on the minds of voters.

It's definitely a kick between the legs to "Coalition of the Willing" governments. It's kind of undoing everything they believed had them in a very strong position for their next elections.
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Old 03-17-2004, 06:41 AM   #103
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(I know I'm late on this, but I just got my computer repaired after a week of being without one.)

Anyway, my condolences to the people of Spain....
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Old 03-17-2004, 12:58 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally posted by TylerDurden
It's a victory to AQ in symbolic terms. It certainly LOOKS like they had the effect, and thats all they need, even if in reality it wasn't the full reason. I certainly don't think a single Spaniard voted that way as an appeasement to AQ. They may not have realised how this symbolicaly looks in that regard.
indeed
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Old 03-17-2004, 07:08 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally posted by TylerDurden
I don't see it as definitely being one thing or the other.

It's a victory to AQ in symbolic terms. It certainly LOOKS like they had the effect, and thats all they need, even if in reality it wasn't the full reason. I certainly don't think a single Spaniard voted that way as an appeasement to AQ. They may not have realised how this symbolicaly looks in that regard. It most likely was simply a protest vote against a government that took a country into a war, despite 90%+ of the population saying they wanted Spain to be no part of it. And a government that was seen as one that fumbled and lied and deceived about it's intentions for going into that war, and even in the day or two between the bombing and the election, continued to fumble and lie. That is what I think was on the minds of voters.

It's definitely a kick between the legs to "Coalition of the Willing" governments. It's kind of undoing everything they believed had them in a very strong position for their next elections.
The PP had consistent lead in the polls until the bombing. This indeed was a victory for AQ. Their goal was to scare enough Spanish people into voting instead for the opposition and they clearly succeeded. The facts speak for themselves. Al Quada understands this and is certainly doing whatever it can to possibly launch more attacks throughout Europe with the same results.

This new Spanish government claims Iraq is a total disaster and decides to withdraw its troops. If one supports democracy and human rights, the last thing anyone should be doing is withdrawing their troops from Iraq. There is important work that needs to be done to get Iraqi government and society on its feet and moving forward. Its sad that some people do not share that goal. Clearly, withdrawing the 1,300 Spanish soldiers currently helping the Iraqi people in variety of ways is not going to help the Iraqi people.

Its a fact that many people in Spain feel that their governments involvement in the Iraq war makes them a bigger target for terrorism. Voting in this opposition government that plans to withdraw from Iraq is certainly appeasement. Its an attempt to shield their country from further terrorism from Al Quada. This is precisely what Al Quada wanted to see in the elections and 41% of the people delivered, regardless of their individual reasons for voting for the opposition. Without the terrorist bombing, the polls show that the PP would have won the election.
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