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Old 07-13-2007, 04:56 PM   #256
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If only it was contained to here on this board.
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:59 PM   #257
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it does feel weird to be at the center of one of the biggest social debates in the US.

though it's losing steam. soon, more states than not will have at least Civil Unions. and, as polling indicates, people under the age of 40 are not just tolerant, but widely accepting of gay people.

so we'll have to go back to screaming about abortion.
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:59 PM   #258
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Originally posted by Irvine511




this doesn't answer the question at all, but it was the answer i was expecting, and it gets right back to the fact that you don't have an answer. you can't answer the question because it is unanswerable because it's premise is fundamentally absurd. there is nothing one can do about being homosexual, much in the way that there is nothing one can do about being heterosexual.

but i want to push you on this. i want you to use Christ and your love for him and this Light and Truth and think harder about this. pray on this. and tell me, in your eyes, what am i supposed to do? what does Christ want for me to do? what if i do what you say, but i remain homosexual? would i then need to try harder? would i not be doing it right if i still had thoughts and feelings for me?

you do realize, of course, that what you're advocating is what the people who run the reparative "therapy" camps do.

and when gay kids try so hard to come to Christ, and this doesn't "cure" them of their sexual orientation, then tend to kill themselves?
I'm not saying anything like this. I am saying the opposite. I am saying place your faith in Christ, everything else is a distant second.

It is faith that matters most to God. Not entry into some Hetero Boot Camp.
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:03 PM   #259
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My honest answer is - I don't know. If you were sitting here right beside me I would say forget about worrying whether or not I think you are immoral, simply look to Christ. Don't look for an answer immediately - just build a relationship with Him. Get to know Him through the Scriptures, through prayer, and through worship. Anything else is secondary.

If during that relationship, your views on the subject change - great. If not - great. The important thing is that YOU will know God as you have never known Him before. Everything else, you can leave behind.
Here is a challenge for you.

Pray to Jesus, your Lord and Savior.

Ask him sincerely, if there is a need to condemn decent people that are gay for no other reason than because they are gay?
Is it the right thing to do?


Ask him if teaching love, is the first principle, and that Love matters more than anything else is enough?
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:04 PM   #260
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Originally posted by AEON


I'm not saying anything like this. I am saying the opposite. I am saying place your faith in Christ, everything else is a distant second.

It is faith that matters most to God. Not entry into some Hetero Boot Camp.


you're dodging the question.

you've said i'm immoral. that i fall short from god. that everyone does this, sure, but doesn't sin require conscious choice? it is not a choice to be gay, though i suppose it is a choice to live as gay, to have relationships with members of the same gender. so, in order not to sin, i must remain celibate?

is that what needs to be done?
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:08 PM   #261
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Well, there is a shortage of new priests in the Church...
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:12 PM   #262
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I would prefer that the laws mirrored all of my moral beliefs, but that's simply not realistic in this case.
Would you want my moral beliefs to have the effect of Law on you and your family?
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:52 PM   #263
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




you're dodging the question.

you've said i'm immoral. that i fall short from god. that everyone does this, sure, but doesn't sin require conscious choice? it is not a choice to be gay, though i suppose it is a choice to live as gay, to have relationships with members of the same gender. so, in order not to sin, i must remain celibate?

is that what needs to be done?
Remember, core to my belief is that EVERYONE without faith in Christ falls short of God. It has nothing to do with individual behavior, it's the premise of original sin. The only way out of the condition is through faith.

Now, we can debate this all you want, but it is a central Protestantand Catholic Christian belief - that we have no choice in being fallen creatures but we can choose to have faith.
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:55 PM   #264
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


Would you want my moral beliefs to have the effect of Law on you and your family?
It depends on your moral beliefs. So far I am pleased that the Judeo-Christian moral beliefs have carried the day more than other options.
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:59 PM   #265
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


Remember, core to my belief is that EVERYONE without faith in Christ falls short of God. It has nothing to do with individual behavior, it's the premise of original sin. The only way out of the condition is through faith.

Now, we can debate this all you want, but it is a central Protestantand Catholic Christian belief - that we have no choice in being fallen creatures but we can choose to have faith.


you're still avoiding the question.

if i had, under your definition, faith in Christ, would i still be homosexual?
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Old 07-13-2007, 06:06 PM   #266
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


It depends on your moral beliefs. So far I am pleased that the Judeo-Christian moral beliefs have carried the day more than other options.
Which ones? Genital mutilation, slavery, killing people for sexual deviancy etc.

Even the concept that by accepting Christ forgives sins is full of flawed, it doesn't undo anything at all and certainly doesn't make someone guiltless by the standards of whomever they wronged.
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Old 07-13-2007, 06:13 PM   #267
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AEON, Irvine already asked this:

Don't you have to choose to sin?
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Old 07-13-2007, 06:31 PM   #268
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
It depends on your moral beliefs. So far I am pleased that the Judeo-Christian moral beliefs have carried the day more than other options.
so if my moral beliefs are the same as yours, it's fine


and if law's are based on religious beliefs that are different than yours

Let's say Jewish divorce law that says a woman is not granted a divorce unless her husband agrees?
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:10 PM   #269
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Many people share Melon's interpretation. Many people (outside of interference.com) share my interpretation. I tend to believe that my own interpretation is more “objective” because I have nothing to gain or lose in the result of the research (since I am not gay). But I’m certain that Melon would think he is more objective because he is not brainwashed by the Conservative Christian scholars.
You tend to believe that your interpretation is more "objective," because it maintains the status quo and pleases your conservative Christian comrades. After all, you wouldn't want to risk being "shunned."

The fact that you have nothing to gain or to lose is precisely why you have zero interest in going beyond the surface of this issue and are prepared to casually write off all homosexuals as "sinners." It doesn't affect you, so why should you care?

Tangentially, this kind of apathetic moral conservatism accents precisely why it will be very difficult to eradicate radical Islam. Why should they challenge what they have been taught when hating Jews, women, and Westerners makes them no better or worse in the end? I guess that makes them as "objective" as you.
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:25 PM   #270
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You tend to believe that your interpretation is more "objective," because it maintains the status quo and pleases your conservative Christian comrades. After all, you wouldn't want to risk being "shunned."
This is a bit unfair as you don't know what risks I have taken on other issues. For instance, I have been "shunned" to various degrees for my more "liberal" stances on women holding leadership positions and my acceptance of theistic evolution (and the fact the universe is billions of years old). I am more than willing to challenge the status quo when I am convinced that I am correct.
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