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Old 08-15-2004, 12:26 PM   #91
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For the record here is a link to Kerry's medal citations and other records in PDF format.

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_...y_records.html
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Old 08-15-2004, 12:36 PM   #92
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Here's another site critical of the Swift Boat crew.

http://www.notsoswiftvets.com/
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Old 08-15-2004, 06:02 PM   #93
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Originally posted by paxetaurora


That is what I suspect more than anything. I'm now so pleased I didn't get into the publishing industry. They really will print anything as long as they think there's money to be had.

Really, do people honestly think Kerry made this shit up?
How is Michael Moore any different? If your willing to defend Michael Moore and his movie, you shouldn't be critical of these individuals either.
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Old 08-15-2004, 07:29 PM   #94
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How is Michael Moore any different? If your willing to defend Michael Moore and his movie, you shouldn't be critical of these individuals either.
I agree, Sting, I originally, in fact, posted in a previous note that I think this book is a conservative version of Fahrenheit 9/11, and was afraid it was too controversial so I took it out! But now that you mention Michael Moore, I'll make the comparison. It's a faith thing either way.
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Old 08-16-2004, 11:10 AM   #95
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A perspective from another veteran.

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artma...cle_5046.shtml

A Vietnam Vet's Outrage Over a Smear Campaign
By JACK DALTON
Aug 16, 2004, 07:26

Back in the end of April, there was still a public debate taking place, at least to some degree, about George W. Bush, his Texas Air National Guard service (?), and a 6 month gap where the records show Bush never showed up anywhere to fulfill his military obligation. In other words, Bush was AWOL for a period of at least 6 months-- and during a time of war. There are men that have spent a lot of time in a military brig for less, but then none of them were as well connected as Bush.


But then, seemingly overnight, the question about Bush and his being AWOL just vanished from the media. It was not because the issue had been settled, as the final chapter about Bush and his National Guard service (?) has yet to be written. With the help of the Heritage Foundation, Fox News (?), and the Weekly Standard, AWOL Bush was replaced with John O’Neill and Swift boat Veterans for Truth (?) and their smear campaign on John Kerry.



This is not the first attack by Bush people on the integrity and honor of someone who served in uniform honorably during a time of war (unlike Bush). John McCain in 2000, Max Cleland in 2002 were two other Vietnam veterans that were smeared in much the same way as what is being done to John Kerry. Where is the outrage over these types of attacks? Or, have we in this country sunk so low as to find acceptable the politics of “fear, hate, and smear” being thrust upon us by BushCo?



Back to O’Neill, Swift Boat Veterans for whatever and their “magical” appearance on center stage of Fox news (?). This sudden and magical appearance is very reminiscent of O’Neill and Vietnam Veterans for a Just Peace and their “magical” appearance back in 1971. That group and O’Neill were a “creation” of the Nixon administration in an attempt to counter John Kerry and Vietnam Veterans against the War, which at the time was a real thorn in the side of Nixon. The only difference between then and now is Karl Rove. I have no doubt that he is involved with this, as this is the type of thing Rove is noted for—dirt and smear by innuendo.



John O’Neil may be a lot of things but a seeker of truth, as he puts it, is not one them. He is, first and foremost, a conservative Republican of the neo-con persuasion and an ardent supporter of Bush; Seeker of truth—not by any stretch of the imagination.



What John O’Neill is is a Houston lawyer whose law firm “Clements, O’Neill, Pierce, Wilson & Fulkerson, L.L.P. handles “Commercial, Oil & Gas, Securities, Intellectual Property & Employment litigation.” In fact, one of his law partners, Margaret Wilson, was the general council for Bush from 1998 to 2000 while he was Texas governor. It just gets better from here.



It seems as though prior to working for Bush, Wilson layered for the law firm of Venson & Elkins, Enron’s main law firm. Interesting side note: Steven Cambone, the current Bush general council whose memo’s told Bush how to circumvent the law on the torturing of prisoners, also worked for Venson & Elkins. Does anyone smell a foul odor yet?



Joe Conason, writing in Salon, May 4th of this year, quoted O’Neill’s own public relations man stating, O’Neill is sounding like a “crazed extremist.” And that comes from someone in his camp!



Wake up people! John O’Neill is one of the Houston Oil/Gas, corporate Republican good old boys. What he and his supporters are attempting to do in this baseless smear campaign directed at John Kerry is nothing more than an attempt to divert our attention from where it should be, and that’s on George W. Bush. Did I mention that in 1991, papa Bush considered O’Neill for a federal judgeship?



Hey, O’Neill, this is another Vietnam veteran that knows you for the fraud you are! If anyone lacks character, ethics, integrity and honor, you need look no further than your reflection in the mirror. You and the rest of your little Heritage Foundation backed and supported group are nothing more than another BushCo goon squad that apparently gets its thrills from the politics of character assassination.



If in fact O’Neill was what he attempts to convince us he is, a “seeker of truth” we would still be discussing George W. Bush being AWOL from the Texas Air National Guard during a time of war.



I really do think it is past time to get back to where we were before the sudden appearance of John O’Neill with all his innuendo, false statements and just plain old everyday B.S. and that is the as yet unresolved issue of Bush being AWOL during a time of war!



LTC (ret) Bill Burkett was the senior army officer who, as a whistleblower reporting “ghost soldier” reporting and filing false readiness reports (USA Today, Dec., 2002) to the Texas House and Senate oversight committees in May of 1998, who at that time revealed that actions by Governor Bush and his senior staff also were taken to scrub Bush’s individual military record. Bill Burkett has appeared and testified under oath before those committees, a formal Inspector General’s investigation with the Department of Defense Inspector General’s office and within civil court actions concerning these allegations. Bill became the object of national interest in February of 2004 when his story of both incidents and the retaliation that followed were included within James Moore’s book, “Bush’s War for Re-election.”



“In the late fall of 1997, while I was just doing my job, I encountered a true dilemma; a decision point. While waiting for an appointment with General Daniel James, the Adjutant General of Texas, I overheard the Governor's Chief of Staff and special assistant telling James to "make sure there's nothing in there that will embarrass the Governor", concerning Governor George W. Bush's military service within the Texas National Guard”…” The real question is anchored within attempts by Bush and his political entourage to cast a false image and then defend it with falsehood once the story began to unravel. And this sets up the question of this being the nexus issue of later framing of a War of choice and other falsehoods within his presidency. It's the credibility issue and trust rolled into one. It's not National Security at all.” (Bill Burkett, What’s an AWOL got to do with Presidential Service?” www.ommp.org for the full article).

Not only must Bush be held to account for being AWOL, those that participated in the manipulation of his records must also be held to account, as should John O’Neill for his substituting fiction and fantasy for truth and fact. The biggest culprit in this fiasco the way I see it is the media. How can they claim to be presenting us with news, fair and balanced as Fox states, when not one of them even brings up who this guy is? If O’Neill had spoken out against Bush, we would have been told everything there is to know about him and then would have watched as his character was brought into question, much the same way as has happened to all that have spoken out against Bush.



Anyone that does not see O’Neill and his group for what they are hacks for the Bush administration is living in a dream world.
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Old 08-16-2004, 02:18 PM   #96
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Thanks Scarletwine. I like that article! As you can imagine the Catholics for Kerry list went berserk when we found out about Jerome Corsi's anti-Catholic views. We are outraged. Corsi claims that his remarks were "jokes". Well, the remark about the Pope being senile and the alleged moral collapse of the Church and the nonsense about gold in the Vatican is so funny I forgot to laugh.
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Old 08-16-2004, 02:50 PM   #97
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Go ahead, STING, rustle up the post in which I defend Michael Moore.

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Old 08-16-2004, 05:20 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by swizzlestick

No matter what you think of the Swiftboat Vets for Truth, they still were the people that served with Kerry. Over 250 of them have now spoken out against his service. They are saying he is lying about what really happened. This is 250 men! And yes, men that served 5 feet from him. Even if he was my candidate, I would believe them. Why won't Kerry sign a standard Form 180 to release all his records? What is he hiding? This whole debate can be put to rest if he would do that. Bush has realeased his records on the National Guard.


250 men, all of whom served with Kerry? No. According to their site, it's "250 swift boat veterans" which really means nothing if they didn't serve with Kerry. If they had served with him they would have said so. Since they didn't I can safely assume that this is another example of their spin. Kind of like how a group of men who "served with" John Kerry only includes one man who actually served on his boat and is headed by another man who didn't meet him until 1971. I'm still going to put more credence in the men who served on his boat, not those who were fifty feet away from it.

The site goes on to say that the men against him "inlcudes his entire chain of command." Interesting. Go and read Kerry's fitness reports from Vietnam.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilse...ss_Reports.pdf

Who's lying? What would his commanders at the time have had to gain from lying on those service reports?

Also please check the non-partisan FactCheck.org for untruths in the Swiftboat vets ad:

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231

Also the non-partisan Snopes:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp

And if you want to see John Kerry's military records you can go here:

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_...y_records.html

And President Bush has not released all of his records, either, but I'll go into that another time.

Quote:
Kerry's Vietnam service is open for debate since he has made it the main issue of his campaign. I don't feel it should be an issue, personally. Even though Kerry did serve only 4 months compared to the standard 12, he still is a hero for serving his country and going to war.
You're right, it should not be an issue. But it is, apparenly, and here we are discussing it. This is not the same as questioning the reasons for his purple hearts. That's beyond the scope, so to speak.

Quote:
I just find it ironic that the Democrats during the Vietnam war were the ones who were the most outspoken against it, and now they are the ones who are praising it.
And I find it interesting that people are still trying to paint those who were against the war as being against the troops. Even John Kerry himself wasn't anti-troop, but anti-war. It is possible to support those going off and doing the fighting and dying, and still deplore the government that sent them there.

And as you said, "Even though Kerry did serve only 4 months compared to the standard 12, he still is a hero for serving his country and going to war." Seems you understand that you can view someone as a hero even if you don't agree with his cause.
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Old 08-16-2004, 05:24 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2


How is Michael Moore any different? If your willing to defend Michael Moore and his movie, you shouldn't be critical of these individuals either.
How about you, STING? Do you loathe these men as much as you loathe Michael Moore?
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Old 08-16-2004, 05:37 PM   #100
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Thanks for the SNOPES link, TG. SNOPES is the ultimate Urban Legend Buster on the Internet. It's cleared up many historical urban legends, and we've used it in my medieval re-enactment society to clear up medieval urban legends. To my knowledge they have no political ties. Since most of the people in our group happen to be Republican (some of them are members of FreeRepublic, just as Jerome Corsi is) it's tough to accuse them of having any sort of political biases. In fact I'm so familiar with them as medieval urban legend busters I didn't even know they did political urban legend stuff until now!
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Old 08-16-2004, 09:53 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora
Go ahead, STING, rustle up the post in which I defend Michael Moore.

Ok, enlighten me on your equal condemnation of Michael Moore and his movie.
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Old 08-16-2004, 10:16 PM   #102
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Originally posted by ThatGuy


How about you, STING? Do you loathe these men as much as you loathe Michael Moore?
No. Moore in his movie attacks the United States, its military, and the President in probably the most grossly inaccurate way possible.

These men on the other hand question details about one man's service during a 4 month period.



The problem I have with these men is that if they felt Kerry did not deserve these medals, why have they waited 35 years to dispute the medals?

Bottom line, although Kerry thinks this election is about where you were and what you did during the late 1960s and early 1970s, this election is about one's plans for the years from 2005 to 2009. I find it absurd that people want to travel back in time prior to the start of Bush's time as president to find reasons that he should not be re-elected as president. Whether Bush should be re-elected as president or not should rest completely on what he has done as President and his plans for the future. By comparison, whether Kerry should be elected as President should rest on his time in the Senate and his plans for the future.

Unfortunately, Senator Kerry does not agree.
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Old 08-16-2004, 10:38 PM   #103
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Wow STING, that's more than a little hypocritical given what you just said to pax.
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Old 08-16-2004, 11:10 PM   #104
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Wow STING, that's more than a little hypocritical given what you just said to pax.
I've condemned both, just one far more than the other. I obviously do not know what Pax's position is and I'm sure she will clarify what it is. Perhaps I should have left out the word "equal".
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Old 08-16-2004, 11:40 PM   #105
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I'm so flattered that my opinion is in such high demand!
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