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Old 11-08-2006, 04:48 AM   #271
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


So how are gluttony, addiction, or drunkeness defined?
A good time?
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Old 11-08-2006, 10:13 AM   #272
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Originally posted by nathan1977
It's disheartening to see how this thread has gone. I know there's a lot of anger at Christians over this subject. It seems like this thread throws more logs on the fire.

Here's where I struggle with this whole conversation: context. No discussion of scripture can be divorced from interpretation, for interpretation is all we have. We don't know the specific issues the Corinthian church faced, since we don't have the letters they wrote to Paul asking for his guidance. Therefore, Melon's arguments, as radical as they may be when compared to more conservative interpretations, are certainly no more or less valid than those of 80s, AEON, or whatever. All interpretation is valid of its own accord -- this is the beauty of having a Bible we can actually read and interpret for ourselves. (A relatively new phenomenon, that.)

However, interpretation is ultimately justified or not based on its role in a larger context. It's the larger context of this issue of sexuality as it applies to the entire Bible that seems to be getting lost here. If -- and I say if, since not everyone on this thread believes God was the author of the Bible, writing through man -- but let's say, for the sake of argument, that it's so -- then you have look at the holistic treatment of sexuality throughout the entire scripture. When you do, it seems pretty clear that one man/one woman is the promoted ideal. (God's choice at creation, Jesus' first miracle being performed at a wedding, Paul's advice against other sexual practices in Romans and 1 Corinthians, the picture in Ephesians of Christ and the church being reflected in the husband/wife relationship). Arguing that silence on an issue gives license for that issue is a mistake, as there are a host of social issues we have to grapple with today that aren't dealt with explicitly in the Bible, but which when the principle is applied. (Is God for or against the mass production and distribution of assault weapons? I don't know, but I do know "thou shalt not murder" and "turn the other cheek" are good places to start.) It's the principle of the thing that seems most important, and when scriptures repeatedly endorse the idea of marriage as one man/one woman, for the sake of order, it seems like you have to work pretty hard and do a lot of reinvention to shoe-horn other interpretations to fit.

To address martha's and BVS' comment, you have to do the same thing with the role of women and female leadership. Given the prominence that women enjoy in both Old and New Testaments -- Ruth, Esther, Deborah, Rachel, off the top of my head in the OT; Priscilla, Lidia, Euodia, Syntyche, John Mark's mother Mary (who bankrolled the early church), Dorcas (who was raised from the dead), Mary, the mother of Jesus, to name just a few -- to take Paul's advice to a group of disruptive women in the Corinthian church and say that it applies to all churches is a gross distortion of scripture, given the prominent female leaders Paul worked with and the role of female deacons and prophetesses he himself endorsed. This seems to show a much more nuanced role of women in the church than casual stereotypes might allow... one that ultra-conservative Christians should probably take into consideration.
Fantastic, articulate post '77.
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Old 11-08-2006, 10:27 AM   #273
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Originally posted by Ormus


And that's where I cite the wisdom of Romans 13, which I shall repeat again for simplicity's sake:

"Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,' and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law." - Romans 13:8-10

I'm sorry - I do find it somewhat ironic that you started this thread with the notion that you could "do without" Christians. That doesn’t quite seem like a very loving attitude to me.

If this is the foundational rule (which it is) - and you don't seem to give it little more than “conveniently placed quoting” status when a theological argument doesn’t seem to be going your way – then how can we take everything else you have asserted on this issue that was built upon your vaporous foundation seriously?

The fact that you quoted Romans 13:8-10, in THIS thread that you started of all places, only demonstrates to me that I think you are playing a game of smoke and mirrors in order to convince a sympathetic public that the Bible in fact justifies your behavior when in actuality - it does nothing of the sort.
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Old 11-08-2006, 10:34 AM   #274
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Just to clarify--melon did NOT start this thread. It was split off from another thread at the thread starter's request, and I titled it myself by lifting a phrase from the initial post. That all should be evident from the twelfth post in this thread.
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Old 11-08-2006, 10:39 AM   #275
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Originally posted by yolland
Just to clarify--melon did NOT start this thread. It was split off from another thread at the thread starter's request, and I titled it myself by lifting a phrase from the initial post. That all should be evident from the twelfth post in this thread.
My mistake.

This is the first post of this thread, and it is by Melon -


"I love God. It's His followers I could live without."

Melon
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Old 11-08-2006, 11:15 AM   #276
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Originally posted by yolland
Just to clarify--melon did NOT start this thread. It was split off from another thread at the thread starter's request, and I titled it myself by lifting a phrase from the initial post. That all should be evident from the twelfth post in this thread.
However, the thread it was in was originally a rant against God, and melon's post "I love God, it's his follower's I could live without" was the first post that was not on topic at all, and was unprovoked in that thread.
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Old 11-08-2006, 11:56 AM   #277
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Originally posted by nathan1977
My pastor was wearing a T-shirt today while speaking that said "Save me Jesus...from the people following you."
So, does this mean nathan's pastor is unworthy to quote Romans 13 to anyone?
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
the thread it was in was originally a rant against God
I took it as an expression of anguish over the sufferings of an innocent child.
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Old 11-08-2006, 12:04 PM   #278
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Originally posted by AEON


The fact that you quoted Romans 13:8-10, in THIS thread that you started of all places, only demonstrates to me that I think you are playing a game of smoke and mirrors in order to convince a sympathetic public that the Bible in fact justifies your behavior when in actuality - it does nothing of the sort.
AEON, do you honestly find this constructive?
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Old 11-08-2006, 12:12 PM   #279
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Originally posted by yolland

So, does this mean nathan's pastor is unworthy to quote Romans 13 to anyone?
I personally wouldn't wear a shirt like this. And I probably wouldn't seek out a pastor with this sort of attitude toward his flock.
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Old 11-08-2006, 12:14 PM   #280
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


AEON, do you honestly find this constructive?
I think there is value is pointing out contradictions.
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Old 11-08-2006, 12:15 PM   #281
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Originally posted by yolland

I took it as an expression of anguish over the sufferings of an innocent child.
"Rant" was a poor choice of words, and I apologize.

It was an expression of anguish over the sufferings of an innocent child.. It was the name-calling part that seemed rather "rantish" to me, but now that I actually look up the word "rant" and see that it usually has to do with craziness, I see that it doesn't apply.
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Old 11-08-2006, 12:16 PM   #282
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Originally posted by AEON


I personally wouldn't wear a shirt like this. And I probably wouldn't seek out a pastor with this sort of attitude toward his flock.
Neither would I, Aeon.
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Old 11-08-2006, 12:17 PM   #283
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


But are there pictures? I mean just mentioning it is not good for me...I am a visual learner.
okay - this was funny...
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Old 11-08-2006, 12:22 PM   #284
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Originally posted by AEON


I think there is value is pointing out contradictions.
Well absolutely, contradictions is one thing, but calling someone disingenuous by saying they are playing a game of smoke and mirrors is uncalled for. I've pointed out plenty of contradictions from your posts and others, but I would never call you insincere.
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Old 11-08-2006, 12:38 PM   #285
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


However, the thread it was in was originally a rant against God, and melon's post "I love God, it's his follower's I could live without" was the first post that was not on topic at all, and was unprovoked in that thread.
If people condemned me because of who I am, I would by angry. I'm angry that some Christians condemn gay people. I have asked earlier in this thread - why? Why spend so much time being right when it only hurts people. Where is the love? Take away all this nitty gritty detail of what one passage that has different wording in different Bible versions and look at the big picture. The story of Jesus meeting the woman at the well (John 4) is a perfect example of loving thy neighbor. Live your life the way you see fit, but don't tell someone else they aren't as equal as you in God's eyes.

Why keep a battle going that limits another's right to live in a loving, harmless way.
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