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Old 04-17-2007, 09:46 AM   #16
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Re: Re: It is time to revise/update the U.S. constitution.....

Quote:
Originally posted by fly so high!


....."Freedom Of Speech" does not equal to "say and do what ever you like without consequences!!!"
That is EXACTLY what I said.
Certain speech should not come under the protection of the 1st amendment - such as hate speech and incitement. That's why the wording has to be changed.
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Old 04-17-2007, 10:26 AM   #17
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While I do not agree with the restriction of Freedom Of Speech, I do strongly believe the right to bare arms is incredibly antiquated...

I realize this is a touchy subject and that firearms have become so prevalent in society that there is a sense that you need to own a gun simply to protect yourself from others...

I can't help but think that if this guy at VT had a hunting knife or a machete, would he have been able to kill or wound over 60 people as easily as he did with guns?
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Old 04-17-2007, 10:30 AM   #18
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It's difficult to argue that stronger gun control laws could have prevented what happened yesterday. If a person wants a gun bad enough, then they will find away to get it. Look at the relative ease that drugs can be obtained despite all the laws against them. I'm not a gun lover at all, but I just don't see how more regulation would be helpful.
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Old 04-17-2007, 10:41 AM   #19
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it's interesting.

i wonder if the nationality of the shooter will change the debate.

of course we'll have the nativist racist response, but i do wonder if the more serious "culture" debate will be affected by the fact that this person was not an American. to my mind, it just underscores how the availability of guns causes violence to escalate. i'm not sure there's something so unique to the American psyche that makes us more prone to violence, though, despite a history born from a revolution, a wild west mythology, and a current administration that enthusiastically embraces violence as a first-means foreign policy tool.

the fact remains: no one knifes 30 people in a classroom.

it's going to be interesting. and it remains to be seen how the debate is going to take place.
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Old 04-17-2007, 11:37 AM   #20
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True, if someone wants a gun they will get a gun, but we still shouldn't make it so easy for them to get one...

It would take someone in the 'know' to get a gun if there were tighter gun controls, therefore preventing someone who has just flipped out committing one of these types of horrible crimes.

There was a man on Newsnight yesterday on the BBC from Virginnia Defence Force (something along those lines) called Van Cleave, he was advocating that all the students should have been carrying arms in order to stop the guy

Honestly I just find it a stupid thing to allow everyone the right to guns, it is as someone has said, very antiquated.

At the very least a police check and a waiting period of a number of months for a weapon should be implemented, ergo reducing spur of the moment crimes, it strikes me as the most sensible thing to do.
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Old 04-17-2007, 11:43 AM   #21
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Re: Re: Re: It is time to revise/update the U.S. constitution.....

Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono

Certain speech should not come under the protection of the 1st amendment - such as hate speech and incitement. That's why the wording has to be changed.
Who decides what equals "hate" and what opinions are punishable? You???
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Old 04-17-2007, 11:44 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by LJT
Honestly I just find it a stupid thing to allow everyone the right to guns, it is as someone has said, very antiquated.
That was me

I can see the need for guns when the constitution was ratified originally; the majority of the US was wilderness with wild animals and hostile natives (not very PC but it was a reality at the time). Other than the "everybody else has guns" argument today, is there any other current need to own one for protection?

And don't even get me started on the hunting/target practice excuse either... Totally unnecessary…
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Old 04-17-2007, 11:44 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by LJT
There was a man on Newsnight yesterday on the BBC from Virginnia Defence Force (something along those lines) called Van Cleave, he was advocating that all the students should have been carrying arms in order to stop the guy
I heard/read similar things and couldn't help but wonder how this would not have made the situation even more chaotic. How would the police know who were the "good" guys and who was the bad guy? Wouldn't there be a huge risk that the responders would accidentally shoot someone else? Not to mention having even more bullets flying around and the risk of them hitting accidental moving targets. I admit, I just don't see how this could possibly be a better scenario.
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Old 04-17-2007, 11:49 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by elevated_u2_fan

And don't even get me started on the hunting/target practice excuse either... Totally unnecessary…
I come from a long line of hunters and we'd all agree with you. Assault rifles have no place in society. You don't use assault rifles for hunting or target practice, unless your target is a human being.
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Old 04-17-2007, 12:13 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono


However you must remember that a war is going on and the enemy is watching everything that is going on. Don't think they don't rub their hands with glee when they see the level of disention(sp?) within the American public. They see this as a sign of weakness on America's part and use it as an excuse to intensify their efforts against America.

By all means, criticize George Bush, impeach him and even put him on trial if warranted.....but do it AFTER the war is over. To do so now would play right into the hands of the terrorists and undermine the efforts to defeat the enemy and end the war as soon as possible.

Don't fall for this. This is just something the right has made up to silence dissention.

Have you ever lived in America? I find it interesting you want to change our constitution.

Gun control does need to be rethought here in America and it has for awhile. Don't forget your hero lifted the assault rifle ban.

As far as free speech, you're so off.
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Old 04-17-2007, 12:39 PM   #26
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i have conflicted feelings about gun control.

i suppose all i want is this: all those who own and love their guns, can you please admit to us all that you're willing to accept 33 dead in order to retain the rights you enjoy.

i just want acknowledgement that gun ownership comes at a price, and that you think it's worth it.
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Old 04-17-2007, 12:39 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra
I suspect this man would have obtained guns even if they were completely illegal.
That may be, but as it was he apparently recently bought a gun at a firearms store in Roanoke. Not sure if they know or will know if it was the one used in the shootings, as he'd apparently filed the serial numbers off.

And Virginia's gun control laws are quite lax.
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Old 04-17-2007, 12:41 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by randhail
It's difficult to argue that stronger gun control laws could have prevented what happened yesterday. If a person wants a gun bad enough, then they will find away to get it. Look at the relative ease that drugs can be obtained despite all the laws against them. I'm not a gun lover at all, but I just don't see how more regulation would be helpful.
I tend to agree with this. While I am in no way a proponent of guns, and would love to see them off the streets, I do not see how tougher gun laws could have prevented yesterday's tragedy.

If someone wants a gun bad enough they will find a way to do so. Here in Montreal we've had three major school shootings in 17 years. The gun laws were toughened after the first two and that still didn't prevent a shooting at Dawson College last September. In fact, Canada in general has, relatively speaking, pretty strict gun laws and yet we still have some gun related murders.
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Old 04-17-2007, 12:58 PM   #29
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I heard it said once that if you own a gun, someone will get shot. While I don't think that's intended to be taken literally, I have seen with my own eyes people waving a gun around because they had difficulty controling their anger and frustration. One incident comes to mind from when I lived in NYC. I witnessed a minor fender bender by Washington Square Park...a car rear-ended another car and the two drivers got out and started screaming at each other, and one of them--a woman--pulled a gun out of her car and started threatening the other driver. It was completely insane. I happened to have a friend from Italy visiting me and he was just astonished and said it was precisely the kind of incident that makes non-Americans think we're a violent society. He interrogated me like a broken record for the rest of the trip: "How is it possible that that woman had a gun? How is it possible?"

I don't know that stricter gun control laws would have prevented this incident but I certainly don't think that the solution to the gun problem in America is more guns.
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Old 04-17-2007, 12:58 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoManiac
In fact, Canada in general has, relatively speaking, pretty strict gun laws and yet we still have some gun related murders.
Very few compared to the US. Very few.

Not to mention, the majority of the illegal guns in Canada are courtesy of the US gun market.
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