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Old 11-22-2005, 05:03 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
This is not a new concept. There have always been "rules of battle" respected by both sides in a conflict. If one was found in violation of those rules, they often paid with their lives.

Dresden...
Horishima....
Falluja....
bombing raids conducted in Cambodia.....
various raids conducted by Israeli military....

all attacks on civilian populations with the main intention of weakening their nerve.

Same as 911.
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Old 11-22-2005, 05:15 PM   #32
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Originally posted by Abomb-baby
[B]Where exactly have I been so belligerant?
well, let's start:

1. [q]I guess if you call NOT agreeing with your twisted Urban Utopian ideology belligerant, than I'm guilty as charged. [/q]

2. [q]The liberals would Scream KANGAROO COURT faster than a speeding car bomb. [/q]

3. [q]I guess we should just bow down to the hague now. Gimme a frekkin break. Maybe we should just disband our entire judicial system. why do we need it? We can just have the Europeans show us how to run our country.[/q]

4. [q]Typical Liberal Hypocricy.[/q]

5. [q]I guess my "neanderthalic thinking" is just beneath you. [/q]

6. [q]Well, I guess YOU value all opinions as long as they agree with YOUR way of thinking. Sorry, but I don't and never will.[/q]

7. [q]I guess when we interrogate terrorist suspects we should just ask NICELY, right?[/q]

8. [q]You people don't seem to get it do you?[/q]

9. [q]One day it will all become abundantly clear to you bleeding heart mamby pambys that we are fighting a war against an enemy who wants you DEAD!! No discussion, no give peace a chance.[/q]



i think you might have a lot to add to the argument; i wish you'd engage other people instead of thinking we are all caricatures of Upper West Side Liberals or San Francisco Lefists so that you have an easier time (and a more fun time) venting, as opposed to offering an argument. as has been noted, many people including John McCain and most of the Republican Party do not agree with water boarding as an appropriate interrogation technique. clearly, you are not speaking for them. so who are you speaking for? and who are you arguing against? you've tossed out a bunch of caricatures and empty catch phrases ("give peace a chance") that belie who you appear to wish you were arguing against. instead, you have many smart people in here who are interested in having a discussion. why don't you try to speak and articulate your points instead of resorting to playground insults like those enumerated above?
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Old 11-22-2005, 05:15 PM   #33
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The first one (attention grab) fine.

The next two make me a bit queasy, but can be acceptable.

Last three, not acceptable.

To me what makes a good person an good person and a good country a good country is how they treat their enemies. Anyone can treat their friends well, it takes true goodness to treat your enemies well.
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Old 11-22-2005, 05:19 PM   #34
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Should an insurgant/terrorist really expect protection under international conventions when they do not live under those same conventions?


great question. it appears that we are in a new era, we are fighting a new kind of enemy who is vastly different from the steel worker in Bavaria who was conscripted into the German army in 1938. what this means is we have to draw up new rules of engagement, and new standards of detention and interrogation.

also, isn't there something to be said for being "better than" the insurgant/terrorist? we prove that our way of life is worth defending and is "better" than their religious alternative through treating the captured better than they might expect, or even deserve, to be treated? the idea of moral authority, something we once had, is of paramount importance when it comes to the "heart and minds" debate, which, as i initially understood it, was going to be a huge component of the GWOT.
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Old 11-22-2005, 06:04 PM   #35
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We already treat our enemies BETTER. Last time I checked we weren't cutting people's heads off or burning them to a crisp and hanging them from bridges. Where is all the outrage for this behavior? I never seem to hear it from the left. Its always, "of course its horrible, but we have to blah blah blah." They dismiss it QUICKLY. Have mistakes been made? Yes. Will they continue to be made? Probably. No war has ever been fought without mistakes. It is a sad reality of war. But I sure didn't hear the same kind of rhetoric from the left when Clinton was in office and bombs were falling. Again if we want to discuss torture lets talk about N Korea, China, Most of the middle east, Africa. Why don't I hear the same sort of concern about these other parts of the world? I believe ppl should have protection of basic human rights. But when ppl act in a way that is against those rights, I believe they must also give something up. Why shouldn't they? Hearts and minds? What would you know about it? The soldiers over there are the hearts and minds. They give of themselves selflessly to the Iraqi ppl only to be blown up by a minority of bad ppl. Our military is doing good, positive work there. Helping orphans, opening new schools, feeding and caring for sick and injured ppl. But you know what? You never hear about it because it doesn't sell. Death and destruction sells. People get a certain satisfaction from others misery. Something the germans call "Schadenfreude"If you look around, you can find the positives, but you have to WANT to find it. Many on the left wish the whole Iraq issue would fail miserabley simply because they have such a seething hate for Bush. Just so they have the right to say 'look, I told you so."
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Old 11-22-2005, 06:09 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Abomb-baby
We already treat our enemies BETTER. Last time I checked we weren't cutting people's heads off or burning them to a crisp and hanging them from bridges. Where is all the outrage for this behavior? I never seem to hear it from the left. Its always, "of course its horrible, but we have to blah blah blah." They dismiss it QUICKLY. Have mistakes been made? Yes. Will they continue to be made? Probably. No war has ever been fought without mistakes. It is a sad reality of war. But I sure didn't hear the same kind of rhetoric from the left when Clinton was in office and bombs were falling. Again if we want to discuss torture lets talk about N Korea, China, Most of the middle east, Africa. Why don't I hear the same sort of concern about these other parts of the world? I believe ppl should have protection of basic human rights. But when ppl act in a way that is against those rights, I believe they must also give something up. Why shouldn't they?


what do you mean when you say "the Left"?

are there specific politicians? authors? columnists? pundits?

if so, can you cite them and their dismissal of the barbarism of the insurgency? can you cite their approval of China and North Korea?
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Old 11-22-2005, 06:37 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Abomb-baby
We already treat our enemies BETTER. Last time I checked we weren't cutting people's heads off or burning them to a crisp and hanging them from bridges.

So, is that our standard? Is our standard merely to be better than the beheaders? I'd like to think we can set ourselves a higher standard than that.

But I'm probably a deluded latte drinking Michael Moore-worshipping (insert cliche of choice, etc, etc) librul.
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Old 11-22-2005, 06:37 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Abomb-baby
Again if we want to discuss torture lets talk about N Korea, China, Most of the middle east, Africa. Why don't I hear the same sort of concern about these other parts of the world?

Yes, but sadly it isn't surprising to hear of torture coming from these areas because it's never really been a secret that it goes on there. America has always stood for something better than that. Whether most of the allegations are true or exagerrated, it will take a long time to come back from this, and that's not the company I want to be in anyway.
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Old 11-22-2005, 06:42 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
what do you mean when you say "the Left"?

are there specific politicians? authors? columnists? pundits?
Good question. I know of many pro-free market libertarians that would be quite offended to be called 'liberals' or part of 'the left', and yet many of whom don't agree with the war in Iraq, for example.

Although I guess to be fair to Abomb-baby, he did state that regardless of whether one was pro or anti the Iraq war, the reality is we are there now, and the main emphasis should be deciding upon the best route to get out, which is a legitimate point.
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Old 11-22-2005, 06:47 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Abomb-baby
Again if we want to discuss torture lets talk about N Korea, China, Most of the middle east, Africa. Why don't I hear the same sort of concern about these other parts of the world?
Egypt
Jordan
Saudi Arabia

Are these some of the middle east countries you are referring to?




these are where the cia rendition flights land



Bush/cheney partners in torture
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Old 11-22-2005, 06:55 PM   #41
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Well, as long as were naming countries, don't forget Spain and Britain, supposed leaders in human rights.
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Old 11-22-2005, 07:42 PM   #42
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^ A game of sleight of hand...look over here at this country, ignore my own.
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Old 11-22-2005, 07:50 PM   #43
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No wonder most of our "intelligence" extracted from them has been nothing but crap. Tortured men are most tempted to tell their torturers what they want to hear, not necessarily the truth.

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Old 11-22-2005, 07:54 PM   #44
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Originally posted by melon
No wonder most of our "intelligence" extracted from them has been nothing but crap. Tortured men are most tempted to tell their torturers what they want to hear, not necessarily the truth.

Melon
What are you basing this statement on? Which intelligence has been "nothing but crap"?

I stand by earlier statement and maintain that just the fear of torture gets around the mindset that since they are in US custody it is impossible (read the captured AQ manuals on GlobalSecurity.org, some very specific pieces about what to do when captured).
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Old 11-22-2005, 07:58 PM   #45
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
What are you basing this statement on? Which intelligence has been "nothing but crap"?
Have we captured Osama bin Laden? No. Have we stopped the insurgency in Iraq? No. How many "terror alert threats" have been issued based on "intelligence" gathered from tortured detainees? A few. Have any of them remotely turned out to be true? No.

True logic would say that the burden of proof is on the U.S. to prove that torturing detainees is actually gathering useful intelligence. Otherwise, I could say that this rock I'm holding keeps the tigers away. I don't see any tigers, so my rock must be working, right?

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