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Old 10-25-2007, 06:24 AM   #256
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Originally posted by U2girl
Phillyfan: see, and that's what I'm trying to say. I feel for those who won't be able to read HP now (not those that choose not to do so), because of the aftermath to this revelation. I feel for the coming two movies kids' attendance because how many articles will have that little note included "JK Rowling sparked controversy by outing Dumbledore" and how many parents will remember that and ban the movie for their kids? It will hang like a shadow over all things HP now.
It's sort of like when the actor Daniel Radcliffe did that play in London and it had nude scenes and all the titles went "Harry Potter NAKED on stage". No one payed attention to the play itself, or his acting. So now it may very well be "new HP movie, encyclopedia, interview et etc but HE'S GAY". You know ?

Once again, understand I do not care for which team Dumbledore bats, I just wish she had this approached this a different way. I found that comment "if I knew it would make you so happy, I'd do it sooner" interesting...did she want to but was stopped by her editors ? Was she unsure of the fan reaction ?
I think that comment means that she never even thought of the crowd reaction.

I don't think it matters, in the end. It'd be much more dangerous to have the ignorant censoring the creators.
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Old 10-25-2007, 06:26 AM   #257
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
"Ignorance", you'll find, is relative. When you're in a liberal forum of like minded people someone who thnk differently can be easily dismissed as "ignorant" or a "bigot" or even "homophobic". I am none.

But I do believe that there was just no room to associate children's books with someone's sexual preference. Not the time or the place. And that's the last I'm posting about this.

(I do respect and appreciate everyone who has argued with me. We disagree in our views but that's it for me.)
But when it's heterosexuality, then it's OK?

Because heterosexuality exists in just about every single solitary children's book.
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Old 10-25-2007, 08:42 AM   #258
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Originally posted by U2girl
Phillyfan: see, and that's what I'm trying to say. I feel for those who won't be able to read HP now (not those that choose not to do so), because of the aftermath to this revelation. I feel for the coming two movies kids' attendance because how many articles will have that little note included "JK Rowling sparked controversy by outing Dumbledore" and how many parents will remember that and ban the movie for their kids? It will hang like a shadow over all things HP now.
It's sort of like when the actor Daniel Radcliffe did that play in London and it had nude scenes and all the titles went "Harry Potter NAKED on stage". No one payed attention to the play itself, or his acting. So now it may very well be "new HP movie, encyclopedia, interview et etc but HE'S GAY". You know ?

Once again, understand I do not care for which team Dumbledore bats, I just wish she had this approached this a different way. I found that comment "if I knew it would make you so happy, I'd do it sooner" interesting...did she want to but was stopped by her editors ? Was she unsure of the fan reaction ?

^ I feel for them too, but not because of what JK said, but because they have bigoted, screwed up parents. And likely, will grow up to be like that as well, and thats the saddest thing!
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Old 10-25-2007, 09:07 AM   #259
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
After 15+ pages of debate it all boils down to whether or not you choose to believe her that she meant for Dumbledore to be gay from day one.

If you choose to because it simply would contradict my argument that she did it to further her political views then well that's your choice. I choose not to because it simply doesn't add up.
Homosexuality is no political view! That's just plain wrong.

And you consistently ignore the posts telling you how the process of character forming and book writing is much more complex than you give it credit to.

And, please, elaborate why this has not to be written about in children's books.
Well, the reason I see here is that you simply cannot differentiate between one's sexual orientation and sex.
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Old 10-25-2007, 09:11 AM   #260
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Originally posted by U2girl
but do you really think that many people will say "Ah! controversy! I want to read this." if they never read HP before?
Yes, that's usually how these things work. She had a big spike after the big christian conservative "banning" a couple of years ago.



Quote:
Originally posted by U2girl

Once again, understand I do not care for which team Dumbledore bats, I just wish she had this approached this a different way. I found that comment "if I knew it would make you so happy, I'd do it sooner" interesting...did she want to but was stopped by her editors ? Was she unsure of the fan reaction ?
Approached in a different way just means, kept in the closet, for I see no other way to approach it, for it's not even in the book, it's just in the back story.
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Old 10-25-2007, 09:16 AM   #261
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So Dumbledore was really straight all along and she decided to change her mind? Or he did?

My head hurts
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Old 10-25-2007, 09:31 AM   #262
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Originally posted by U2girl
I found that comment "if I knew it would make you so happy, I'd do it sooner" interesting...did she want to but was stopped by her editors ? Was she unsure of the fan reaction ?
I would have to see a video of how she said that, but as I read it it was more a sarcastic statement concerning the reaction of the audience. You may also call it simply a joke.

And again, if some children now get barred from reading the books or watching the movies... so what? Should she be concerned about that.
Other kids aren't allowed to read it because of the wizardry.

Same with Daniel Radcliffe's play. Was it a bad move on his part to take a role in that play because some would not like it?
And isn't the media to blame for headlines like "Harry Potter naked on stage"?
First, he isn't Harry Potter, he is Daniel Radcliffe. This actually reminds me of the German actress Romy Schneider who played the role of Sissi, and later it was always "Sissi did...", "Sissi played...", "Sissi won...." and so on.
It's sad that especially the media ties certain actors to one role for the rest of their life when in fact they also did great other movies or plays, and they ignore the artist behind the role.

It sounds like you are concerned that the sales of the movies will decrease. Well, if I were the money-driven production company I would be concerned. Otherwise... not really.

Those children who now miss out on Harry Potter because of their bigoted parents won't be traumatized that they didn't get to read/see Harry Potter. I don't think they miss out on such a great thing that there will be kind of a gap in their life.
And more importantly, no one should back off from stating something because some close-minded people might not like what they hear.
And I would say that for JK Rowling the characters she created have become a very important part of her life with some kind of an own life.

And as far as I'm concerned this discussion isn't that big an issue outside the States.
But I might be wrong.
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Old 10-25-2007, 09:49 AM   #263
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Originally posted by Diemen
Again, U2girl, should we constantly be catering and pandering to the opinions of bigots and the uninformed? We'd never get anywhere as a society.
Catering and pandering would be, IMO, not saying about DD being gay at all even if she saw the character that way all along. Nowhere did I say she should do that.

And, again, if the parents may be bigoted, should the children be punished for it ?

Angela: maybe. But for all we know, someone like that will have a single read at the books, see there isn't any overt sexuality in it (I assume the controversy-drawn reader would expect) and toss it aside afterwards.

phillyfan: well, she may have anticipated it would BIG news (she could have put in the books from day one). It needn't be censorship, just using a different tactic to convey the same message (ie say "yes...and I will tell you all about it in the encyclopedia" which is said to be covering additional info and more ***backstory on characters***). Would the same reaction happen ? Probably, only in a much smaller scope, less children would probably be banned from HP while the message still gets out and this particular info doesn't hang over the series now as a cloud, which will no doubt happen thanks to the media. I think the potential readers, and those having trouble viewing the films/reading now - that is, those that will get banned from HP, not those that choose to walk away on the books - are the victims in all of this.

Vincent Vega: I don't know. You think she wasn't concerned about this info, or the issues the books faced because of the wizardry ?
Exactly, the media took the "NAKED" part and blew away everything else about that play (and let's face it, Harry Potter draws more attention than using the actor's name). Just like we will probably be heaing "JK Rowling interview...new HP movie .... oh yeah, GAY character". I think the movies will still sell, I'm concerned about kids now not getting a look into the magic she created with HP.
Yes, I doubt this would an issue anywhere near this size anywhere outside the US.
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Old 10-25-2007, 10:10 AM   #264
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Catering and pandering would be, IMO, not saying about DD being gay at all even if she saw the character that way all along. Nowhere did I say she should do that.

That's exactly what you are saying.

No, actually you said you'd be ok with outting him after all the books were released...

Which is catering to...
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Old 10-25-2007, 12:02 PM   #265
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


There's libraries or they will find a way to borrow the book, come on weren't you ever a kid?
Heh. Any kid worth his salt would take a "You can't read that!" to mean " I double dog dare you to read it."

Books I managed to read despite my mother:
The Excorsist (Actually, I think I saw the movie first. The old one. But I wasn't officially to see it. Because /she/ had nightmares. I mean, come on, lady, you let me read IT at eight. What, possibly, could I be twitched by in this book? To tell you the truth, I found the backwards spider walking funny. And the pea soup vomit? Priceless. )
Skye O'Malley (incest was described early on in this book.)
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Old 10-25-2007, 12:58 PM   #266
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Children of homophobic parents have far worse things to worry about, things in their lives far more damaging, than not being allowed to read Harry Potter books.
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Old 10-25-2007, 01:10 PM   #267
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Monday, Oct. 22, 2007
Put Dumbledore Back in the Closet
By John Cloud

When J.K. Rowling announced at Carnegie Hall that Albus Dumbdledore—her Aslan, her Gandalf, her Yoda—was gay, the crowd apparently sat in silence for a few seconds and then burst into wild applause. I'm still sitting in silence. Dumbledore himself never saw fit to come out of the closet before dying in book six. And I feel a bit like I did when we learned too much about Mark Foley and Larry Craig: You are not quite the role model I'd hoped for as a gay man.

I'm not defending the closet, a perilous and sad place. But I don't see how Rowling's outing of Dumbledore strikes a blow for gay equality so great that even Carnegie Hall—cathedral of the arts, cynosure of homosexuals—should erupt in joy.

Yes, it's nice that gays finally got a major character in the sci-fi/fantasy universe. Until now, we had been shut out of all the major franchises. Tolkien, a conservative Catholic, wrote a rich supply of homoeroticism into The Lord of the Rings—all those Men and Hobbits and Elves singing to each other during long, woman-less quests. The books and their film versions feature tender scenes between Frodo and Samwise. But in the end Sam marries Rose Cotton and fathers 13 children. Thirteen! You'd think he had something to prove.

Other fantasy worlds have presented gay (or at least gay-seeming) characters, but usually they are, literally, inhuman. George Lucas gave us the epicene C-3PO and the little butch R2-D2, and their Felix-Oscar dialogue suggests the banter of a couple of old queens who have been keeping intergalactic house for millennia. But their implied homosexuality is quite safe. There is no real flesh that could actually entangle, just some electrical wiring. Similarly, there was a complicated girl-on-girl plot in 1995 on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, but let me spare you a fanboy's geeked-out summary by noting merely that the two girls weren't really girls—they were gender-complex aliens called Trills—and all they did was kiss.

So along comes Rowling with Dumbledore—a human being, a wizard even, an indisputable hero and one of the most beloved figures in children's literature. Shouldn't I be happy to learn he's gay?

Yes, except: Why couldn't he tell us himself? The Potter books add up to more than 800,000 words before Dumbledore dies in Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, and yet Rowling couldn't spare two of those words—"I'm gay"—to help define a central character's emotional identity? We can only conclude that Dumbledore saw his homosexuality as shameful and inappropriate to mention among his colleagues and students. His silence suggests a lack of personal integrity that is completely out of character.

I had always given the Potter books a pass on the lack of gay characters because, especially at first, they were intended for little kids. But particularly with the appearance of the long, violent later books, Rowling allowed her witches and wizards to grow up, to get zits and begin romances, to kill and die. It seemed odd that not even a minor student character at Hogwarts was gay, especially since Rowling was so p.c. about making her magical creatures of different races and species, incomes, national origins, and developmental abilities. In a typical passage, the briefly mentioned Blaise Zabini is described as "a tall black boy with high cheekbones and long, slanting eyes." Would it have been so difficult to write in a line in which Zabini takes the exquisitely named Justin Finch-Fletchley to the Yule Ball?

And then there's Dumbledore himself. I don't mind saying I got misty when Rowling killed off Dumbledore in Half-Blood Prince. His twinkling eyes, his flowing manteau, his unfailing (if at times fortune-cookie-ish) wisdom—Rowling made it impossible not to revere him.

But here is a gay man as de-sexed as any priest—and, to uncomfortably extend the analogy, whose greatest emotional bond is with an adolescent boy: scarred, orphaned, needy Harry. Rowling said at Carnegie Hall that in her conception of his character, Dumbledore had fallen in love long ago with Gellert Grindelwald when the two were just teenagers. But Grindelwald turned out to be evil, which apparently broke Dumbledore's heart. (Quite evil: Grindelwald is Rowling's Hitler figure, opening a camp called "Nurmengard" for political enemies in the 1940s. Dumbledore/Churchill eventually defeats Grindelwald/Hitler in a 1945 duel.)

But as far as we know, Dumbledore had not a single fully realized romance in 115 years of life. That's pathetic, and a little creepy. It's also a throwback to an era of pop culture when the only gay characters were those who committed suicide or were murdered. As Vito Russo's The Celluloid Closet: Homosexuality in the Movies (1981) points out, in film after film of the mid-century—Rebel Without a Cause; Rebecca; Suddenly, Last Summer—the gay characters must pay for their existence with death. Like a lisping weakling, Dumbledore is a painfully selfless, celibate, dead gay man, so forgive me if I don't see Rowling's revelation as great progress.

Am I making too much of this? Undoubtedly. Some of the best Star Trek fan fiction—and there is so much you couldn't read it all in a lifetime—involves steamy Kirk-Spock love affairs. So it will be with the Potter world, as Rowling has acknowledged. Lasting books cease to be their authors' property; we are now all free to imagine a gay life more whole and fulfilling than the one Rowling gave Dumbledore. But it would have been better if she had just left the old girl to rest in peace.
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Old 10-25-2007, 02:31 PM   #268
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And as far as I'm concerned this discussion isn't that big an issue outside the States.
But I might be wrong.
No I don't think it is in the UK. It did get press coverage but there's been little debate about it since, other than fans saying they didn't see it coming etc.
There are several gay characters in UK books aimed at adolescents and teens anyway and I think that the later Harry Potter books which run at over 600 pages each and have quite complex plots are aimed more at this market who have grown up with Harry and reflect the development of Harry himself into an hormonal sexually aware late teen. In Doctor Who a really popular children's sci-fi TV programme here, ( I don't know if you get it elsewhere?) there was also a bisexual male character not long ago who kissed both the leading male and female roles. Again I think this was noted in the press but there wasn't a big outcry - few people had an issue with it and younger kids wouldn't have thought anything of it anyway.
I just find it ironic that one of the underlying themes in the HP books is the advocacy of greater tolerance for others (man, woman and wizard!).
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Old 10-25-2007, 02:35 PM   #269
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That's exactly what you are saying.

No, actually you said you'd be ok with outting him after all the books were released...

Which is catering to...
Nope.

But hey, you claim I'm saying the same thing BEB is so what's the point ?
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Old 10-25-2007, 02:54 PM   #270
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phillyfan: well, she may have anticipated it would BIG news (she could have put in the books from day one). It needn't be censorship, just using a different tactic to convey the same message (ie say "yes...and I will tell you all about it in the encyclopedia" which is said to be covering additional info and more ***backstory on characters***). Would the same reaction happen ? Probably, only in a much smaller scope, less children would probably be banned from HP while the message still gets out and this particular info doesn't hang over the series now as a cloud, which will no doubt happen thanks to the media. I think the potential readers, and those having trouble viewing the films/reading now - that is, those that will get banned from HP, not those that choose to walk away on the books - are the victims in all of this.
Yes, they are, but it doesn't mean that JK Rowling should not have said it.

And I still don't see how you think "she may have" other than saying it's a possibility, when it comes to her thoughts on the reaction. That's more going back to what BEB keeps going on about it, trying to pretend to know what she's thinking. Based on what she said, I think these things are pretty clear:

1) She has thought this for a while.
2) She didn't really give much thought to how people would react.
3) She has no agenda at all.
4) She hadn't been asked a question like this since at least Book Seven, when she was finishing off the character. Because if she had, she would've answered the same way.
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