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Old 12-03-2004, 09:51 PM   #121
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i would also like to add that i have far more respect for people like A_Wanderer, who has looked at Christianity and decided that it is totally illogical, and that to believe in anything it says is completely pointless, than someone who says they believe the "Christ message", but don't think that he's the only way.

It's a wonderful stepping stone in this global society, when we are discussing religion and participating in interfaith dialogue, that some of us still feel that it is acceptable and reasonable to extend a lack of respect to certain segments of believers.

I disagree with many of your views, but I respect you no less than someone I agree with entirely. There is no moral high ground in a hierarchy of respect.
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Old 12-03-2004, 10:17 PM   #122
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Originally posted by anitram




I disagree with many of your views, but I respect you no less than someone I agree with entirely. There is no moral high ground in a hierarchy of respect.
respect is earned. and it is too easily tossed around today. if i feel that someone's stance is an intellectual cop-out, shouldn't i be entitled to that opinion?

to me, if someone comes to the aforementioned crossroads, and somehow ends up with the conclusion that Christ had the right message, but i also disagree with that message, then that is the phrase of someone who copped out. they arrived at the crossroads and stopped. i think it only fair teh, that a person who, when reaching the crossroads, actually uses their mind and sees that only the two options are possible, and follows the path of their choice, has acted more admirably then the one who simply gives up. therefore, the person who acts admirably earns respect.

also notice that though i respect A_Wanderer, it is not because i am in agreement with him! in fact we are at opposite ends of the spectrum on matters of faith. instead, i respect him because he is a person who actually uses his intellect, instead of sitting idly at the crossroads, unwilling to go any further.
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Old 12-03-2004, 10:25 PM   #123
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Who is giving up? I don't understand at all how you've come to such a conclusion.

There are incredible people of faith all over the world, doing incredible work. Feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, comforting the sick, promoting peace and justice and equality and love for your neighbours. And at night some of them pray to Jesus, some to Allah, some to YHWH, some to Krishna and I'm not bothered at all, because they are living lives of faith and love and they should be respected for it in the greatest possible way. I'm not giving up on ANYTHING by believing that we have all been created by one loving God who is omnipotent and who embraces all people of good will.

I love Mother Teresa's quotes, who said that when a Hindu was dying in her arms, she would tell them, pray to your Gods, to your Krishna. And she said that her job was to make a good Catholic a better Catholic, a good Hindu a better Hindu. Has she not earned your respect by living an exemplary life of Christian faith?

I've said this before and I'll say it again - you can go on believing in a God who doesn't want me in his kindgom, while I will believe in one who will want you in it. And if that's me "giving up", then so be it.


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i respect him because he is a person who actually uses his intellect, instead of sitting idly at the crossroads, unwilling to go any further.
You know nothing about people's intellect on this board. What a terribly pretentious statement to make. And with that, I'm out, I've absolutely no need to discuss this in the context of who's a greater intellectual. Good luck.
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Old 12-03-2004, 10:44 PM   #124
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either Christ is the messiah, or he is a stark raving lunatic. or can you tell me that it would be perfectly normal for a person to walk around claiming to be the Son of God. either He is the Son of God, as he claimed, or He is a madman. I don't see how any other conclusion could be reached.

i have to ask you though, where did this stuff about those helping their fellow men in the world come from? did i ever once mentions people's works? nope, not that i recall.

i think it is fantastic that these people are helping to make the world a less harsh place. God created us that we might serve each other, and through serving each other, we are serving Him. and it is possible to do good for the world whether you are a Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, etc.

however, how much good you do your fellow man has no bearing at all on how you get into heaven. so at this point, i think a discussion of works to be irrelevant.

also, i really don't appreciate being misrepresented by you. i never once said that my God doesn't want you in His kingdom. i believe the exact opposite to be true. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him." jn 3:16-17. instead, it seems as though you say you want the kingdom, but you don't want God in it.
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Old 12-04-2004, 02:18 AM   #125
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He is a madman or a messiah and there is no in between. In all probability he was a madman who history treated extremely well.
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Old 12-04-2004, 02:41 AM   #126
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to hiphops post.. though we disagree of the existence of heaven and hell

The question was ..is this the ONLY way... ? So the answer

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Old 12-04-2004, 03:11 AM   #127
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Originally posted by softhackle
you either believe Jesus is the only way to a relationship with God or he was a liar or an idiot. what kind of person you are and the life you lead is not the path that Jesus offers through Him. It's your acceptance of His grace. You accept it or you don't. If you don't believe it that's fine, but it is not the same thing as other religions that do require certain behavior and actions on your behalf to have a relationship with God or some other spiritual entity or entities.
Romans 3:25-28 (NIV), "God presented [Jesus] as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished -- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law”, the Apostle Paul said.

I believe God's love is stronger than puritanical justice, and also faith without works is dead.

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I agree with Deep, these verses are used by humans to divide, control and brain wash, but if you take out the human's nature to distort these verses for power, control, etc; they're simple, clear and profound. You accept them as Truth or you don't.
Or as I do, accept it as a truth, and also believe that a just and loving God wouldn't make only one truth, which was unavailable to most of the world's population throughout most of history, and condemn everyone else.

There are many chairs in this world. Yet they are still chairs. Some call them “sedia”, “silla”, “chaise”, “stoel”, “stuhl”, etc. Does that mean that Spanish, Italian, French, Dutch, and German chairs are really that much different than our own? Of course not. Dio and Dios are God, God is God, Gott is God, Jesus is God, Allah is God, Dagda is God, etc. For good reason God changed our languages at the Tower of Babel because He was afraid of one world religion.

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If you don't, that doesn't necessarily make the one's that do accept them as Truth as divisive, separatists or elitists. Sadly, "religion" has been used for the greatest tragedies in human history.
Very true, although religion has hurt a lot of people, and there is a lot is disdain towards organized religion worldwide, there is also a lot of good it does individuals. Sadly, fundamentalist Islamic and fundamentalist Christian religious leaders have been the worst offenders of propagating negative images of religion gone wrong.

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Being a follower of Christ is not about a religion (i.e. you and I doing things to have a relationship with God), but rather an acceptance of Jesus’ claims that He was the Son of God. If you believe Him then you follow what He says, but following what He says out of some "religious traditionalism" does nothing in regards to trusting Him and His offering of Grace as the only bridge to a relationship with a righteous God.
True enough, but God is not in a box.
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Old 12-04-2004, 04:44 AM   #128
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars

It means: live like "I", live "through me", live my ideas, my revolution, my teachings, my wonders - and ultimately, live my pain. Then you will come to the father.
Excellent post!
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Old 12-04-2004, 04:47 AM   #129
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
He is a madman or a messiah and there is no in between. In all probability he was a madman who history treated extremely well.
May I become as mad as he is then.
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Old 12-04-2004, 04:53 AM   #130
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Well maybe God made it all happen so in truth Jesus was his son

Part of faith is suspending the probable and embracing the possible.
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Old 12-04-2004, 05:00 AM   #131
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Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart
either Christ is the messiah, or he is a stark raving lunatic. or can you tell me that it would be perfectly normal for a person to walk around claiming to be the Son of God. either He is the Son of God, as he claimed, or He is a madman. I don't see how any other conclusion could be reached.
Interesting, you accuse others here who do not see two options of not using their mind. I as a teacher, believe the person who sees more than two options, more than black and white, ect as having used their mind. I would say the student who sees only two options as being limited in their thinking.

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Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart
i have to ask you though, where did this stuff about those helping their fellow men in the world come from? did i ever once mentions people's works? nope, not that i recall.
So because you did not mention, it is not worthy of being a part of the discussion. There are references int he Bible of people becoming Christian and doing something with their faith rather than sitting idly by. Maybe it is you who are not open to looking at iother roads in the intersection.

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Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart
i think it is fantastic that these people are helping to make the world a less harsh place. God created us that we might serve each other, and through serving each other, we are serving Him. and it is possible to do good for the world whether you are a Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, etc.

however, how much good you do your fellow man has no bearing at all on how you get into heaven. so at this point, i think a discussion of works to be irrelevant.
Then clearly you are picking and choosing what parts of the Bible are relevant to you and your point of view. Very limiting.

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Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart
instead, it seems as though you say you want the kingdom, but you don't want God in it.
If you are directing a statement at someone, try using something other than YOU.

What a awful think to say about a person. Who do you think you are to make a statement like that? Get off the seat of judgement. Who are you to decide what Anitram, or any other poster feels about god. You may not agree with them, but that does not make them any less corect in their FAITH than you are in yours.

If you are not here to have a discussion but to prove you are right on a matter of FAITH why post?
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Old 12-04-2004, 05:00 AM   #132
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Well maybe God made it all happen so in truth Jesus was his son

Part of faith is suspending the probable and embracing the possible.
embracing the impossible too
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Old 12-04-2004, 05:01 AM   #133
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It could be a slogan.
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Old 12-04-2004, 11:32 AM   #134
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


Interesting, you accuse others here who do not see two options of not using their mind. I as a teacher, believe the person who sees more than two options, more than black and white, ect as having used their mind. I would say the student who sees only two options as being limited in their thinking.

{...}

If you are not here to have a discussion but to prove you are right on a matter of FAITH why post?



outstanding post. there might be only one truth, but there is never just a single answer.
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Old 12-04-2004, 12:02 PM   #135
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Originally posted by anitram
I disagree with many of your views, but I respect you no less than someone I agree with entirely. There is no moral high ground in a hierarchy of respect.
I agree, I think anyone who has well-thoughout posts and who is attentive to opposing viewpoints earns my respect, even if I don't agree with them.
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