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Old 12-05-2004, 09:23 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally posted by pwmartin
P.S. I'm sorry that last post was so disjointed and poorly-worded. It's been a long day.

I have a technical question: how are ya'll doing that quote offset thing, where a quote from a previous post appears in a white text block?
Click on the quote button.
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Old 12-05-2004, 09:26 PM   #182
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Originally posted by Irvine511



you've missed the point, i think (correct me A_Wanderer if i'm wrong).

what AW is refering to is the christian idea that by virtue of being human, you are therefore a sinner. he rejects that notion, that we are all guilty by virtue of humanity, in the way that most contemporary white American southerners, for example, cannot be held personally responsible for slavery.
right, that is why i said what i did about being held responsible for OUR OWN PERSONAL sins. do you claim to have never done something you know in your heart was wrong? i don't know that anyone makes this claim. therefore, we all have our own personal sins to be accountable for.

your example of the slaveholder would only apply if slavery still existed today, and that person participated in it. sin still exists today. people are still sinning. that leaves some things to be accountable for...
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Old 12-05-2004, 09:28 PM   #183
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I don't deserve to be punished for the crimes of my ancestors nor do I subscribe to the concept that there is a blood curse upon mankind to that effect, if there is a God (and I do not think that there is but I could be wrong) out there then I reject that submission to it's will and all the baggage associated. We live our lives and die, the human condition is the only thing to consider in all of this.


Do you really believe this is true? Can you not think of examples--perhaps even in your own life--where the mistakes of previous generations have had a negative effect on your life? Have you ever had divorce, for example, in your family? The effects of that broken relationship tend to reach farther than just the two people involved...it effects the parents, the siblings, and the children. There is still redemption and hope--all is not lost--but the "sins" are felt in multiple generations and relationships.

I think the biblical writers noticed the same things...but they attributed it to God's punishment being visited on because they were extremely monotheistic. Nowadays, we explain it away with areligious, psychological reasons. But I hear the Bible telling the same truth differently.

(And I like the Bible's verson better because it offers hope in the long run. God can bring good out of bad, even when we think it's impossible.)
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Old 12-05-2004, 09:34 PM   #184
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Originally posted by Irvine511

finally, sin. how do you know if you've truly repented? how do you know if you've been absolved? how do you know you've understood the magnitude and implications of your sins? your paragraph sites the motivation of repenting as not the understanding of how your sin negatively impacts the lives of those around you -- like how molesting a child destroys him/her in myriad, almost unfathomable ways -- but the fear you have of eternal death.

in the end, the "faith alone" argument strikes me as terribly narcissistic.

how do you know if you've understood the implication of your sin? think about a time in your life where you have dissapointed (through a negative action of your own) someone who you love and care about, and desperately desired them to love you back. think about how it's worse when your mum tells you she's dissapointed in you then if she just yells. this is the feeling of knowing the weight of your sin, only you have let down God as well.

if you feel this weight of sin, i think you'll know whether your confession is true or contrived.

how do you know you are absolved? because God says you are! that is the message of the gospel. the message of forgiveness. that is why Christ was sent, so that we would be forgiven. you only need to believe God when he tells you this.

also, please explain why you believe "faith alone...is terribly narcissistic."
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Old 12-05-2004, 09:44 PM   #185
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Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart
whenhiphopdrovethebigcars, how would you interperate Acts 4
"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."? there is no "ambiguous "i" in this verse, so i wonder if that changes anything?
Doesn´t change a bit of my interpretation, because read and interprete all of Acts 4, including:

4:29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant to THY SERVANTS, that with all boldness THEY MAY SPEAK THE WORD,

4:30 BY STRETCHING FORTH THY HAND TO HEAL; and that SIGNS AND WONDERS MAY BE DONE BY THE NAME OF THY HOLY CHILD JESUS.

4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of ONE HEART, and of ONE SOUL: neither said any of them that aught of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had ALL THINGS COMMON.

Colossians 1:16-17 For IN HIM (Christ) all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created THROUGH HIM and FOR HIM. And He is before all things, and IN HIM ALL THINGS HOLD TOGETHER"

That´s what they mean when they use "I" or "my name" - like said, "I" is Jesus himself, his actions, wonders, the prayers, pain, mercy, soul, the whole being, the world.
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Old 12-05-2004, 09:56 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


That's appalling and truly bothers me to the core of my soul. I've been a member here for nearly 4 years and I've never had something so incredibly cruel and untrue said to me. Thanks a lot, have a Merry Christmas.

See you around, Dread. Tell your wife she's found herself one of the good ones.
Ach Martina... don´t be sad

You see, many people haven´t followed the way yet. Maybe they will, sometime, maybe they won´t.

Remember the words of another wise man, Bob Dylan

My love she speaks like silence
Without ideals or violence
She doesn't have to say she's faithful
Yet she's true, like ice, like fire

(It´s such a perfect song for a lonely, cold winter morning)
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Old 12-05-2004, 10:59 PM   #187
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Some people get the idea that life is a big throwaway, and waste their own trying to prove that God doesn't exist. I like to think of my life on earth as a temporary location, and life on earth certainly doesn't last forever. This helps me overcome struggles, and gives me a hope for eternal life.
IF, this is your only location and no eternal life and god exists. Then atleast you wont get a chance to say that you were wrong. But i will get a chance to say UPS, i was wrong if either a so called heaven or hell exists.
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Old 12-06-2004, 04:34 AM   #188
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You know, I was just reading through this thread and it seems like maybe some people here can't handle this subject matter in an adult way. I don't think it's exactly kind, respectful, or helpful to suggest that someone has rejected God when you don't even know her. And yes, I'm addressing one specific situation, but that comment made me, personally, so upset that I am singling it out and will use it as justification to close this whole thread if necessary.

I was out a lot over the weekend and not really looking into FYM much even when I was here, but I'll be watching this thread now, for sure.

And hoping that anitram will come back to FYM in spite of the way she's been treated.
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Old 12-06-2004, 04:37 AM   #189
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Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart
right, that is why i said what i did about being held responsible for OUR OWN PERSONAL sins. do you claim to have never done something you know in your heart was wrong? i don't know that anyone makes this claim. therefore, we all have our own personal sins to be accountable for.

your example of the slaveholder would only apply if slavery still existed today, and that person participated in it. sin still exists today. people are still sinning. that leaves some things to be accountable for...
It could be argued that the companies that existed during slavery, some of which still exist today, benefitted from slavery, and their shareholders ect.
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Old 12-06-2004, 04:41 AM   #190
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We need a statute of limitations on sin.

I am against belittling people for their faith or lack thereof (not a reference to anybody rather a very broad stroke) and would just like to add that if I could meet myself in the real world I would find many flaws in my own arguments. I for instance am not one for religiousity and I have not looked critically at Christianity to make an informed decision - I have simply lived a life devoid of religion and have no yearning to go about finding salvation any time soon. As far as intelligence and argument goes, there is a very large gap between the two, there are plenty who may argue some things that I would agree with who are full of shit and dumb likewise there are many very intelligent individuals who also argue for the same things, basically I wash my hands of any arguments that involve third party references to me and just say that anitram was did not deserve that and I would not in my right mind accept any praise that degraded her.
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Old 12-06-2004, 07:28 AM   #191
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Originally posted by pwmartin


How do you know you can trust your heart? What if your heart is TERRIBLY wrong and wants to mislead you.

Here's an extreme: what if Hitler said he was trusting his heart? A suicide bomber? A person who commits suicide?

...


And let's tease out this example of this altruistic athiest doctor who wants to cure cancer? What is going to be his moral compass in this endeavor?

What will he/she be willing to do in order to cure cancer? Test experimental drugs on children, if necessary? Use stem cells from aborted fetuses? Write misleading grant applications in order to fund research? Steal? Have horrible bedside manner? Treat his/her patients like dirt in order to have data to cure the disease? Do the research purely for self-serving

well, the Bible and faith are used to justify all sorts of horrible things, like, say, suicide bombing. what if the Bible is terribly wrong? i think it often is, or is interpreted in a horribly wrong manner. in the end, the heart is a living, beating thing, and in my experience, the heart allows you to put yourself in someone else's shoes and to *empathize* with someone in a way that Scritpure can't, while allowing you to do what Jesus said: love thy neighbor ... etc.

in the end, i'd rather use my brain and my heart combined with my experience rather than consulting some sort of 2,000 year old manual.

and if my brain and heart are wrong, so be it. i'll be tossed into jail, or reprimanded by my mother. whatever fits the crime.

as for your second point, we could get into a long discussion about morals vs. ethics. its no secret at all that medicine and medical research are governed, quite rigidly, by ethics. no one needs God or Jesus or the Bible for that, they use rationality and practical experience in defining what is and what isn't medically appropriate, and these things are hotly contested and constantly in dialogue. euthanasia is one example, so is the use of medical marijuana. yes, our historical foundation in judeo-christian law informs these ethics, but simply to use an interpretation of God or the Bible as reasons to not do something would never pass muster.
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Old 12-06-2004, 07:32 AM   #192
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Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart
right, that is why i said what i did about being held responsible for OUR OWN PERSONAL sins. do you claim to have never done something you know in your heart was wrong? i don't know that anyone makes this claim. therefore, we all have our own personal sins to be accountable for.

your example of the slaveholder would only apply if slavery still existed today, and that person participated in it. sin still exists today. people are still sinning. that leaves some things to be accountable for...
i think AW was rejecting a central premise of Christianity: that we are all sinners. he doesn't think he's a sinner until he has sinned, where as Christianity, by virtue of Adam and Eve, is definitionally "fallen" from God.
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Old 12-06-2004, 07:37 AM   #193
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Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart
how do you know if you've understood the implication of your sin? think about a time in your life where you have dissapointed (through a negative action of your own) someone who you love and care about, and desperately desired them to love you back. think about how it's worse when your mum tells you she's dissapointed in you then if she just yells. this is the feeling of knowing the weight of your sin, only you have let down God as well.

if you feel this weight of sin, i think you'll know whether your confession is true or contrived.

how do you know you are absolved? because God says you are! that is the message of the gospel. the message of forgiveness. that is why Christ was sent, so that we would be forgiven. you only need to believe God when he tells you this.

also, please explain why you believe "faith alone...is terribly narcissistic."
#1: sounds suspiciously like my "heart and mind" argument.

#2: ditto #1 -- you're doing a great job of proving my point that the heart knows more than Scripture when it comes to interpreting the messiness of everyday life

#3: lovely! time for lunch.

#4: because it seems to absolve you from so much, and is extended only to Christians. Buddhists can't be saved, neither can Hindus, neither can Jews or Muslims. i hate that idea. it seems like Christianity proving it's exclusivity to itself.
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Old 12-06-2004, 09:02 AM   #194
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I will say that yes, Christianity is a very exclusive faith. But, if there was one true faith, wouldn't it allow a lifetime to come to it? Wouldn't it forgive everything you've done in the past, and erase all of that?
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Old 12-06-2004, 09:33 AM   #195
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Originally posted by paxetaurora
You know, I was just reading through this thread and it seems like maybe some people here can't handle this subject matter in an adult way. I don't think it's exactly kind, respectful, or helpful to suggest that someone has rejected God when you don't even know her. And yes, I'm addressing one specific situation, but that comment made me, personally, so upset that I am singling it out and will use it as justification to close this whole thread if necessary.

I was out a lot over the weekend and not really looking into FYM much even when I was here, but I'll be watching this thread now, for sure.

And hoping that anitram will come back to FYM in spite of the way she's been treated.
hi! so, um, apparently you didn't read any other posts after that. thanks. also, huh, you are a moderator and could probably send me an email if you have a problem with my posts. i would be more than willing to discuss this in a private email...
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