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Old 07-11-2006, 12:14 PM   #16
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ultimately, what we can all agree upon is that sexual orientation is 100% involuntary.
Probably why my question wasn't answered.
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Old 07-11-2006, 12:57 PM   #17
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Irvine, you do make a compelling argument, even if I do not agree with your conclusions.

For the sake of this discussion - is there evidence to back up this claim? That number seems pretty high.

Also, the scientific/medical community is definitely NOT in agreement over the causes of human homosexuality. Just a few google searches will pull up amazing articles that address both "sides" of the argument.

That being said, it is an undisputable fact that thousands of homosexuals have changed their sexual orientation. Whether or not we think they "need to" is another discussion. (I suppose a straight man could go through a program to become homosexual if he really wanted).

On a separate note – if homosexuality is genetic, where did those homosexual genes come from? I am just assuming that they cannot be “passed down” from one generation to the next. In Darwinian terms – how was the homosexual gene “selected for” in the natural selection process? It seems, this is either a hole in Darwinism or an argument against a homosexual gene.
Why all the use of quotes? "need to" "passed down" "selected for" ? Is it because you don't really believe the point those words are tying to make? I noticed the article did that as well and I found it insulting.

I think you missed a word:
Quote:
That being said, it is an undisputable fact that thousands of homosexuals have "changed" their sexual orientation.

Do you really believe someone can change their sexual orientation?
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Old 07-11-2006, 01:16 PM   #18
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Do you really believe someone can change their sexual orientation?


even these groups don't think that someone can change their sexual orientation, they simply think that they can help someone change their behavior.

most of these groups view homosexuality as a behavior akin to alcoholism, or kleptomania, or any other form of addiction. they resemble 12-step programs, as opposed to a legitimate psychiatric treatment like you'd undergo for depression or bipolar disorder. an alcoholic will always be an alcoholic, even if he isn't drinking. he might be sober, but he's still an alcoholic, and alcohol remains an ever-present temptation just like homosexuality remains an ever-present temptation to an "ex-gay." in fact, many, many leaders of the "ex-gay" movement have had numerous (and public) "slip-ups" where they "relapse" and are photographed at, say, a Washington, DC gay bar in 2001 like John Paulk. recovery and relapse are considered normal parts of an "ex-gay" existence.

ultimately, the tiny percentage of men who are considered "successes" haven't become heterosexual, they are now members of a new identity group, the "ex-gays," in which it is the norm to submit to temptation and return to ex-gay ministry over and over again.

no one is cured, but normal expressions of love and lust, as natural to any homosexual as they are to a heterosexual, can be temporarily curbed.
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Old 07-11-2006, 02:13 PM   #19
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Could you?
It seems to me there is enough scientific evidence to say that I could. However, I would not choose to because of my moral/spiritual convictions.
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Old 07-11-2006, 02:17 PM   #20
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Originally posted by AEON


It seems to me there is enough scientific evidence to say that I could. However, I would not choose to because of my moral/spiritual convictions.


but there isn't any scientific evidence.

please, show me the scientific evidence that says that people can change their sexual orientations.

question for you: what if you were gay? what if one of your children is gay? how would this affect your moral/spiritual convictions?
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Old 07-11-2006, 02:21 PM   #21
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It seems to me there is enough scientific evidence to say that I could. However, I would not choose to because of my moral/spiritual convictions.
So you aren't naturally heterosexual?

What scientific evidence? The small percentage that were scared into thinking they were wrong?
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Old 07-11-2006, 02:40 PM   #22
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


So you aren't naturally heterosexual?

What scientific evidence? The small percentage that were scared into thinking they were wrong?
Some quotes from the leading "gay gene" researchers over the past 15 years that you will not find on www.anythingbutstraight.com. This seems to negate the idea that homosexuality is exclusively the result of biology. The evidence is out there, but you are obviously free to draw your own conclusions.

(1) From Dr. Dean Hamer, the "gay gene" researcher, and himself a gay man:

"Genes are hardware...the data of life's experiences are processed through the sexual software into the circuits of identity. I suspect the sexual software is a mixture of both genes and environment, in much the same way the software of a computer is a mixture of what's installed at the factory and what's added by the user."
--P. Copeland and D. Hamer (1994) The Science of Desire. New York: Simon and Schuster.

(2) From psychiatrist Jeffrey Satinover, M.D.:

"Like all complex behavioral and mental states, homosexuality is...neither exclusively biological nor exclusively psychological, but results from an as-yet-difficult-to-quantitate mixture of genetic factors, intrauterine influences...postnatal environment (such as parent, sibling and cultural behavior), and a complex series of repeatedly reinforced choices occurring at critical phases of development."
--J. Satinover, M.D., Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth (1996). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.

(3) When "gay gene" researcher Dr. Dean Hamer was asked if homosexuality was rooted solely in biology, he replied:

"Absolutely not. From twin studies, we already know that half or more of the variability in sexual orientation is not inherited. Our studies try to pinpoint the genetic factors...not negate the psychosocial factors."
--"New Evidence of a 'Gay Gene'," by Anastasia Toufexis, Time, November 13, 1995, vol. 146, Issue 20, p. 95.

(4) William Byne, a psychiatrist with a doctorate in biology, and Bruce Parsons (1993) carefully analyzed all the major biological studies of homosexuality. They found none that definitively supported a biological theory of causation. --W. Byne and B. Parsons, "Human Sexual Orientation: The Biologic Theories Reappraised." Archives of General Psychiatry 50, no.3.)


(5) Psychiatrists Friedman and Downey state that "a biopsychosocial model" best fits our knowledge of causation, with various combinations of temperament and environmental events leading to homosexuality. They say:

"Despite recent neurobiological findings suggesting homosexuality is genetically-biologically determined, credible evidence is lacking for a biological model of homosexuality."
--R. Friedman, M.D. and J. Downey, M.D., Journal of Neuropsychiatry, vol. 5, No. 2, Spring l993.

(6) From sociologist Steven Goldberg, Ph.D.:

"Virtually all of the evidence argues against there being a determinative physiological causal factor and I know of no researcher who believes that such a determinative factor exists...such factors play a predisposing, not a determinative role...I know of no one in the field who argues that homosexuality can be explained without reference to environmental factors."
Goldberg adds:
"Gay criticism has not addressed the classic family configuration"; it has merely "asserted away the considerable evidence" for the existence of family factors. Studies which attempt to disprove the existence of the classic family pattern in homosexuality are "convincing only to those with a need to believe."
--S. Goldberg (1994) When Wish Replaces Thought: Why So Much of What You Believe is False. Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books.

(7) An article on genes and behavior in Science magazine says:

"...the interaction of genes and environment is much more complicated than the simple "violence genes" and intelligence genes" touted in the popular press. Indeed, renewed appreciation of environmental factors is one of the chief effects of the increased belief in genetics' effects on behavior. The same data that show the effects of genes also point to the enormous influence of non-genetic factors."
--C. Mann, "Genes and behavior," Science 264:1687 (1994), pp. 1686-1689.

(8) Among Jeffrey Satinover's conclusions in "The Gay Gene":

"(1) There is a genetic component to homosexuality, but 'component' is just a loose way of indicating genetic associations and linkages. 'Linkage' and 'association' do not mean 'causation.'
(2) There is no evidence that shows that homosexuality is genetic--and none of the research itself claims there is. Only the press and certain researchers do, when speaking in sound bites to the public."

--Jeffrey Satinover, M.D., The Journal of Human Sexuality, 1996, p.8.

(9) Says brain researcher Dr. Simon LeVay:

"At this point, the most widely held opinion [on causation of homosexuality] is that multiple factors play a role.
"In 1988, PFLAG member Tinkle Hake surveyed a number of well-known figures in the field about their views on homosexuality. She asked: 'Many observers believe that a person's sexual orientation is determined by one of more of the following factors: genetic, hormonal, psychological, or social. Based on today's state-of-the-art-science, what is your opinion?'

"The answers included the following: 'all of the above in concert' (Alan Bell), 'all of these variables' (Richard Green), 'multiple factors' (Gilbert Herdt), 'a combination of all the factors named' (Evelyn Hooker), 'all of these factors' (Judd Marmor), 'a combination of causes' (Richard Pillard), 'possibly genetic and hormonal, but juvenile sexual rehearsal play is particularly important' (John Money), and 'genetic and hormonal factors, and perhaps also some early childhood experiences' (James Weinrich)." (Page 273)

--Simon LeVay (1996), in Queer Science, published by MIT Press.

(10) The American Psychological Association says:

"Various theories have proposed differing sources for sexual orientation...However, many scientists share the view that sexual orientation is shaped for most people at an early age through complex interactions of biological, psychological and social factors."
--From the A.P.A.'s booklet, "Answers to Your Questions About Sexual Orientation and Homosexuality"

(11) The national organization P-FLAG ("Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays") offers a booklet prepared with the assistance of Dr. Clinton Anderson of the American Psychological Association. Entitled, "Why Ask Why? Addressing the Research on Homosexuality and Biology," the pamphlet says:

"To date, no researcher has claimed that genes can determine sexual orientation. At best, researchers believe that there may be a genetic component. No human behavior, let alone sexual behavior, has been connected to genetic markers to date...sexuality, like every other behavior, is undoubtedly influenced by both biological and societal factors."
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Old 07-11-2006, 02:42 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


That being said, it is an undisputable fact that thousands of homosexuals have changed their sexual orientation.
Then I would say that they weren't truly homosexual to begin with; they were at the very least bi-sexual, because no homosexual I know, including myself, can just change their sexuality as if it were a pair of pants.


Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


(I suppose a straight man could go through a program to become homosexual if he really wanted).

Again, I would assert that this theoretical straight man was not truly heterosexual to begin with, or if he was, then the end result of the program through which he went would be a spectacular failure.
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Old 07-11-2006, 02:45 PM   #24
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Originally posted by Irvine511




but there isn't any scientific evidence.

please, show me the scientific evidence that says that people can change their sexual orientations.

question for you: what if you were gay? what if one of your children is gay? how would this affect your moral/spiritual convictions?
If my child were gay I would still love them with all of my heart. I can't say that I would like the behavior choice, and as a parent I would certainly share with them why I think the way I do.

I would do the same with any behavior of theirs I did not approve of.

I have to leave - I will address your other questions later
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Old 07-11-2006, 02:47 PM   #25
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So, I'm assumming they've found the "straight" gene.
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Old 07-11-2006, 02:51 PM   #26
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Originally posted by AEON


Some quotes from the leading "gay gene" researchers over the past 15 years that you will not find on www.anythingbutstraight.com. This seems to negate the idea that homosexuality is exclusively the result of biology. The evidence is out there, but you are obviously free to draw your own conclusions.

but no one, including myself, has argued that there is a "gay gene" -- but everyone you've mentioned has argued for a strong genetic component to homosexuality. no one has put forth the argument that homosexuality is exclusively the result of biology, but everyone has argued that homosexuality has a strong genetic component, and everyone has argued that no one can change their seuxal orientation.
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Old 07-11-2006, 02:53 PM   #27
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Originally posted by AEON
If my child were gay I would still love them with all of my heart. I can't say that I would like the behavior choice, and as a parent I would certainly share with them why I think the way I do.


it greatly saddens me that you'd reduce my loving, monogamous relationship down to a "behavior choice."

is your marriage simply a "behavior choice"?

i am glad that you would continue to love your children, and i would hope that your love for your (hypothetically) gay child will lead you to see that homosexuality is exactly the same as heterosexuality, only the individual is attracted to the same gender and not the opposite.
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Old 07-11-2006, 03:33 PM   #28
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Originally posted by AEON
If my child were gay I would still love them with all of my heart. I can't say that I would like the behavior choice, and as a parent I would certainly share with them why I think the way I do.
Would it make you happier if they chose a lonely, unhappy and unwanted lifetime of celibacy? or an unhappy and sexually impoverished heterosexual marriage, thus spreading the consequences of their unhappiness to their prospective spouse and future children? Because that, as a parent, I don't understand at all.

Or are you operating from the assumption that homosexuality is nothing more than a "behavior choice" (not what the quotes you selected suggest), and could therefore be "fixed" to everyone's satisfaction through a little 12-step behavior modification therapy (in which case, where is the evidence that homosexuality meets the DSM criteria for addiction)?
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Old 07-11-2006, 04:00 PM   #29
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or an unhappy and sexually impoverished heterosexual marriage, thus spreading the consequences of their unhappiness to their prospective spouse and future children?


this is precisely why i came out.

at one point, i was fully prepared to "play it straight," and have the marriage and the kids and get my kicks on the side, and then it dawned on me just how horribly selfish that would be and how degrading such a life would be to the theoretical wife and children.
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Old 07-11-2006, 05:30 PM   #30
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Would it make you happier if they chose a lonely, unhappy and unwanted lifetime of celibacy? or an unhappy and sexually impoverished heterosexual marriage, thus spreading the consequences of their unhappiness to their prospective spouse and future children? Because that, as a parent, I don't understand at all.
I would be happiest with a wonderful, heterosexual marriage for both of my kids. I do no think I am being extreme to hope for such a thing.

Of course I want my children to be happy instead of unhappy. But I think we may disagree with what genuine happiness is. I usually think of it as joy, and IMHO - deep internal joy can only be experienced while a soul is in communion with God (that is, doing God's will).

Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

Or are you operating from the assumption that homosexuality is nothing more than a "behavior choice" (not what the quotes you selected suggest), and could therefore be "fixed" to everyone's satisfaction through a little 12-step behavior modification therapy (in which case, where is the evidence that homosexuality meets the DSM criteria for addiction)?
Well, the earlier posts in this thread sure seemed like they favored a purely biological reason for being a homosexual. Perhaps I misunderstood. The reason I used the quotes was to refute the idea that being gay was purely genetic.

By trying to get me to admit that anyone needs “fixing” is putting me into a position to make a value judgment. I won’t do that. Because I am not a homosexual, I can only base my opinions on what I read and observe. Actually, I think this makes me more objective on this issue.

We can debate all day about what the Bible says on this subject. I think it is crystal clear that God opposes any sexual activity outside of heterosexual marriage, others don’t see it so clearly.

Since I am not a PhD in Biology or Psychology, I rely on scientific articles and books to summarize their conclusions. I try to read both sides of any given argument. I have seen many posts here that seem to contradict what I am reading – so I felt I could perhaps shed some light on opposing views, knowing full well that I would be instantly cut down as a “homophobe.”

The only person I have known that is/was gay is my favorite aunt. She is about 8 years older than me. She was always the “cool” aunt growing up. She married and had three kids. Unfortunately, she had a very abusive husband. To escape her situation (her words) she explored sexual relationships with other women. She eventually left her husband and moved in with another women and bringing her 3 kids along. It was a bit of a shock, but nobody treated her any different. She was still my aunt, she was still cool, and she still had a great sense of humor. After a few years, she came to Christ and left the woman. Now she lives with her sister and seems to be very happy.
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