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Old 09-26-2004, 11:15 AM   #1
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I'm a conservative Christian Republican....

....please tell me why I should vote for John Kerry (I'm serious here). I haven't decided yet and if nothing strongly pulls me in either direction, I will vote with my party (Bush). I'm 20, female, Christian Reformed (Dutch Protestant), from a middle class family with both parents working, educated at local private schools, working full time supporting myself, attending a private college as a full time student during the school year, and will graduate with a degree in Business Communications and move to southeast USA. Given this basic info about myself, please tell me what John Kerry can do for me. (I'm not too lazy and stupid to figure it out myself, I'd just like to here what others have to say)
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Old 09-26-2004, 11:20 AM   #2
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He will have the clarity of mind to realize when a decision is taking us in the wrong direction and will do what he can to fix it.
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Old 09-26-2004, 11:48 AM   #3
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1. the tax cuts are screwing middle class families. when a poor person gets a couple hundred dollars back, the money will go directly to help pay for rent, food, clothing, etc. when a rich person gets a few hundred thousand dollars back, he/she will invest it and become even richer. when a middle class family gets a few hundred back (i think most middle class families got $400 back originally), they don't need it to make ends meet AND it's not enough to invest. Therefore on the most basic level, the middle class is the one actually paying for the war and other huge Bush expenses...since the tax cuts do not have any major impact on their lives (whereas everyone else is actually gaining something) -- also because the middle class is the largest socio-economic grouping the country (who unfairly does not control the majority of wealth AND is not the beneficiary of most government spending). John Kerry would roll back the tax cuts for those making more than $300,000 a year and spend the money to pay back the huge debt we've amassed in the past 4 years.
2. A person's religios beliefs should have no play in political decision-making. Almost any law that has religious/cultural implications will not pass in the federal government (gay marriage ban/abortion ban). So comparing religious beliefs with a presidential candidate should go along with character analysis, etc ... but should not be one of the "issues" you use to compare different candidates (since it will have to impact on the actual legislation passed). In terms of character, I think it is safe to say that George Bush is a very good politician. He changed the focus of the war on terrorism to a war in Iraq. Maybe John Kerry is not good enough a politcian to do that (which is why the republicans succeeded in labeling him a flip-flopper). However, I think it is also safe to say that Kerry is a more honest politician. Even if it's due to lack of political skill ... he IS right that Bush did "bend" the truth to go to Iraq. If your conservative religious beliefs stress morals/ethics, I think John Kerry would go the moral direction before using politics to complete an agena.
3. Bush has ignored the 18-25 age group more than any other president in recent history. The amount of federal scholarship/financial aid programs to college students has decreased since Clinton. Kerry knows his strength in our age group, and will try to increase the amount of funding going to people our age (I am 22).

This is all I have time for now ... but I am sure there are just as valid arguments against everything I said. And I would like to hear them ... since the truth is more important than opinion!
Peace...
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Old 09-26-2004, 12:06 PM   #4
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Well said Anirban. I was too lazy to say that much!
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Old 09-26-2004, 12:29 PM   #5
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This is really interesting, bootleg. You almost described me perfectly when I was 20 years old. In fact, when I was 19 [almost your age] I voted for Dole. Go figure.

So why vote for Kerry.
-- Compassionate does not describe the Republicans anymore. As a Christian, I would rather have my tax break helping out those in need than lining my pocket. I'm not saying give all your money to charity, but Jesus taught us to help the poor and those less fortunate. The Bush admin. just pushes that off on the Christian churches in this country and hopes they take care of it.

-- Speaking of Christianity, I believe the most important thing Jesus taught us was to be loving and respectful toward each other. If you aren't straight, white and Christian, you are second class in Bush's America. Look no further than the Republican convention, where most convention goers were white and the platform outlaws any kind of union that isn't a marriage between a man and woman -- no live-ins that don't want to get married, no same-sex marriages, nothing.

-- Iraq. We shouldn't have gone in, we shouldn't have spent $200 billion, we shouldn't have lost the lives we did and we especially shouldn't have gone to war without first finishing what we started in Afghanistan.

-- 9/11. Like many people in this country, I strongly supported Bush in our time of need after the attacks, but as time went on, I became more and more angry. In the three years since the attacks, we still have not caught bin Laden. Firehouses are closing in this country including mine and five others in NYC. The FDNY and NYPD have not received raises in two years because my city has to decide if we spend money on paying to protect Grand Central or giving firefighters and cops a decent wage. We shouldn't have to make those decisions. Those politicians in DC said they would do anything to help us out and they haven't. Bush said "The people who knocked down these buildings will hear all of us soon." Those people are still on the loose. I get on the subway everyday and go under the river to my job in Manhattan and I'm always afraid someone will blow the train up when I'm on it. Make no mistake, we are no safer than we were three years ago.

I remember walking through my neighborhood in Brooklyn in the weeks after 9/11 and seeing all the missing posters attached the front doors of the houses where people never came home. I can't vote for Bush because of those people and because of what happened to me that day. He said he would protect us and take care of us. He said he would find the people that hurt my city. He lied to my city and I will never forgive him for that because I will never forgot what happened to me that day.

If this doesn't convince, simply think about the values you hold as a Christian. Then decide who is more likely to show compassion toward you and others in this country. Who is more likely to show compassion toward other countries and cultures? Is 20,000 dead civilians in Iraq compassionate to you? Over 1000 soldiers have died yet our president has not gone to one funeral for our fallen -- is that compassionate?

It's funny, I've become much more liberal between 9/11 and just living in NY. And I've realized that as a middle class Christian who has only been in the Real World for a few years, my political views have changed dramatically. I was young and didn't always feel that my views were best represented by the Republicans. I'm still young and I've realized that my views are accepted time and time again on many issues by the Democrats.

Good luck with your choice -- this may be the hardest decision you're ever going to make in a voting booth.
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Old 09-26-2004, 01:08 PM   #6
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i think mrs ketchup heinz is a neat christian lady when she calls people "scumbags" and tells them to "shove it".
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Old 09-26-2004, 01:39 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by thane
i think mrs ketchup heinz is a neat christian lady when she calls people "scumbags" and tells them to "shove it".
tsk tsk Mrs. Heinz, such strong language!
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Old 09-26-2004, 01:45 PM   #8
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I can edit crap posts out of a thread within 2 seconds and don't figure that I won't if you sidetrack this thread
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Old 09-26-2004, 02:10 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
This is really interesting, bootleg. You almost described me perfectly when I was 20 years old. In fact, when I was 19 [almost your age] I voted for Dole. Go figure.

So why vote for Kerry.
-- Compassionate does not describe the Republicans anymore. As a Christian, I would rather have my tax break helping out those in need than lining my pocket. I'm not saying give all your money to charity, but Jesus taught us to help the poor and those less fortunate. The Bush admin. just pushes that off on the Christian churches in this country and hopes they take care of it.

-- Speaking of Christianity, I believe the most important thing Jesus taught us was to be loving and respectful toward each other. If you aren't straight, white and Christian, you are second class in Bush's America. Look no further than the Republican convention, where most convention goers were white and the platform outlaws any kind of union that isn't a marriage between a man and woman -- no live-ins that don't want to get married, no same-sex marriages, nothing.

If this doesn't convince, simply think about the values you hold as a Christian. Then decide who is more likely to show compassion toward you and others in this country. Who is more likely to show compassion toward other countries and cultures? Is 20,000 dead civilians in Iraq compassionate to you? Over 1000 soldiers have died yet our president has not gone to one funeral for our fallen -- is that compassionate?

Wow.

You kinda changed dramatically, I agree with that.

Congratulations for your true Christian values. I value the same.

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Old 09-26-2004, 02:28 PM   #10
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So anyone who supports Bush does not have "TRUE" Christian Values? Or is it wrong to read to much into that?

Oh and FYI Kerry, to my knowledge has not attended any of the Funerals of the Massachusetts' citizens who have died in the war he voted for. That is compassionate?

Since the Bush tax cuts, charitable donations have increased to my Lions Club from members and non-members. Is that because so -called rich people are lining their pockets? Maybe its because people now have more money to donate to the charity they CHOOSE to rather than have Uncle Sam take and take.

Point in case, my minister at church made note that there has been more money in donations and collections this past year. Where did that come from? All the wealthy people hoarding their wealth.

Clearly if you have money you are lining your pockets.....
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Old 09-26-2004, 02:50 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
So anyone who supports Bush does not have "TRUE" Christian Values? Or is it wrong to read to much into that?


Well, read the bible.

"Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God."

I dont think Bush is a peacemaker.

Anyway, I think that also some Bush supporters might have true Christian values. I am a Christ and I believe in what I call true Christian values, so it is not my.. policy to exclude. We are all one.

On the other hand, I don´t think it is a true Christian value to mix up religious statements with support-for-troops-statements. On my recent trip, I also visited the United States, and it was shocking for my true Christian values that the House of God was full of pictures saying "We pray for OUR troops". In my opinion, a true Christian value would be to pray for EVERYONE who is in the horror of a war. And didn´t Jesus say just that? Didn´t Jesus even say "Love your enemies"?

In my opinion, its just unreasonable to say you believe in The Sermon On The Mount, when at the same time you support war.

In the Bible you can also read:

"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
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Old 09-26-2004, 02:51 PM   #12
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Well, I agree with Sparky and Anirban, and would just like to add my $.02:

Remember that the costs of this war, the historic defecit, and the abuse of government spending will not be paid for by our parents, but by OUR generation (I am in the same demographic as you). That the Bush tax cuts do more to harm us than to hurt us, in the long run. The first tax cut may have stimulated the economy, but continuing such umbrella tax cuts is irresponsible and downright dangerous. Our parents will make the social security and medicare boat, but if things continue the way they have in Washington, I have great doubts that we will. Bush has already talked of privatizing these institutions; apparently he'd rather us pay to balance the budget than restrict spending by Washington itself.

Kerry, an effective diplomat, was able and willing to step across the aisle and work with fellow Sen. John McCain to write a bill calling for fiscal responsibility in Washington, specifically an end to "government welfare" as it's been called, and a new "pay-as-you-go" policy. He will give tax cuts to those who need them most.

Realize that $400 will not even come close to covering the rising costs of medicine and living, especially if we no longer have any significant social security or medicare to speak of.

Kerry is for war when it is necessary to protect our homeland, but will not fabricate evidence in a war where only the oil companies and the government profit. He knew we needed to get rid of Saddam eventually, but wanted to take a more diplomatic approach; he also knew that if war wasn't immediately justifiable, we ought to work first to keep the humanitarian situation stable there. Bush seems to have very little compassion for the citizens of Iraq, and the oil money that was supposed to be used to rebuild the country has for the most part stayed in Halliburton's pocket.

Kerry has a timeline for withdrawal: He knows we need to bring home the vast majority of our troops at some point, but that we need to leave an Iraq who can take care of itself. That means training a police force and making an honest effort at rebuilding the country. Bush has no plan to speak of; Kerry has a timeline, and the international respect and know-how to make it happen. This is the compassionate thing to do, for both the people of Iraq, and our own citizens and soldiers..

The GOP/media has characterized Kerry as a flip-flop, but there is little evidence to support these claims. The main tagline is that he voted for the war and against funding it. This is way too simple, and not true. He voted to authorize the war if proved absolutely necessary in defense of our homeland. This was the right vote. He did vote to fund our troops, just not for the specific Republican bill that happened to pass through a Republican-controlled house. He voted against this bill because it was a bad bill: loads of money set aside for special interests to be spent at Donald Rumsfeld's discretion, partisan excess, and too little money spent actually arming our soldiers. If all the $87 billion was spent honestly on the war effort, why would soldiers families have to save up simply to supply them with body armor? This was the right vote. The Kerry campaign's only fault is that they will not attack this issue, save a weak mumbling of "I voted for it before I voted against it." They have a passive approach, hoping to let all the labelling and slander just blow over, and it may unfortunately cost Kerry the election.

Hope that helps! I applaud you for making an honest effort to consider the "other side." I come from a family who have voted on both sides throughout the years, and I have learned to look at the candidate before the party...Looks like you have the same approach, and it sure is refreshing to see! This time around, I simply feel that Kerry is the better choice by far.

Please let us know if you have any questions about anything, and keep us informed about which way you're leaning!
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Old 09-26-2004, 02:53 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox

Oh and FYI Kerry, to my knowledge has not attended any of the Funerals of the Massachusetts' citizens who have died in the war he voted for. That is compassionate?
Quote:
The bit about Presidents attending funerals has been debated in this forum time and again over the past few years. There is NO historical precident at all for Presidents to attend funerals of fallen soldiers. It is rediculous to say this is something Bush has done wrong, when no other president in our country's history has been held to this standard.
Talkin' outta both sides of yer mouth again, Dread.

One of the reasons I can't stand coming to FYM.
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Old 09-26-2004, 03:19 PM   #14
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Talkin' outta both sides of yer mouth again, Dread.

One of the reasons I can't stand coming to FYM.
Don't come in then. I have taken a break from here too. I am not changing my posting style, nor am I going to stop making statements when I see something posted that I do not agree with, no matter what side of an issue I am on.

No, not talking out of both sides of my mouth. Making a point. It is a rediculous argument. Hence the reason for my post, to show how equally rediculous it would be to make the statement about Kerry. Before passing judgement on my and my posts, please feel free to ask a question, politely.

If I am not mistaken, you accused me of this in a gay marriage thread, an issue that has tremendously personal implications in my life and in my family.

If you care to make a personal statement about my posting, please feel free to contact me through PM.

Also, feel free to go into your personal preferences and block my posts if I am one of the reasons you do not like coming here.
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Old 09-26-2004, 03:56 PM   #15
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OK, as far as relgion + politics goes, let me just say that I do and will always believe that abortion is wrong and the death penalty is wrong. Those topics you might as well save your time and not discuss. I'm really looking for insight on more internal issues like education, health care, economics, that kinda stuff. There's plenty of threads on the war and various religious debates so I've already made up my mind in those areas.

PS. I guess you can also convince me to vote for Bush if you want.
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