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Old 09-25-2002, 12:25 PM   #1
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I look forward to post-ideology...

I have not fully realized how the post 9-11 environment has affected me until enough time has passed. Some random observations that I assume will offend some people's egos here, but, please, take it as me thinking out loud (which is what I am really doing):

- Anti-American sentiment is going to levels worthy of "The Onion." Yes, we blew up our own buildings and brought down our own planes, so we could own all the world's oil and establish a "Gap" in every Islamic temple. Never mind, of course, that America has been researching hydrogen fuel cell technology that would make us probably no longer need foreign oil in another decade...so I'm sure we would get yelled at for that as well.

- Leftism has proved completely ineffectual in dealing with terrorism, which has always looked disdainfully upon intellectualism and pacifism--bulwarks of leftism. Something indeed tells me that intellectualism and pacifism will not dismantle Al-Qaeda, no more than intellectualism and pacifism will not dismantle the Christian Coalition. In fact, it only seemingly fuels the fanaticism further. I guess as long as Al-Qaeda doesn't strike anything else but America--since they "clearly" deserve it, according to Canadian opinion polls--then America should just shut up and take it?

- I have a sick admiration for both Reagan and Dubya, but I think that the latter has taken the cake for me. The manners in which he can slip in archetypical conservative ideology for "national security" is worthy of Machiavelli. I mean, attempting to establish the "Homeland Security" (how very "1984" sounding!) Department without a labor union out of "national security" concerns and get away with it is flat out brilliant. I can only wish that the Democrats had mastered such cold and calculated moves thirty years ago.

(More to come...)

Melon
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Old 09-25-2002, 01:26 PM   #2
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What is the Christian Coalition?
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Old 09-25-2002, 01:52 PM   #3
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Yo Melon-
How is Boston?

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Old 09-25-2002, 02:48 PM   #4
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I have a sick admiration for both Reagan and Dubya
Is there any other way to have admiration for these two?
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What is the Christian Coalition?
It's an extremest organization that has nothing to do with Christianity and has everything to do with casting judgements and trying to force the nation to bend to their rules and regulations that they drew up to replace God.
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Old 09-25-2002, 02:56 PM   #5
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Is there any other way to have admiration for these two?
yes. actually there is. the way the bush administration handled the days surrounding 9/11 was impeccable.


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It's an extremest organization that has nothing to do with Christianity and has everything to do with casting judgements and trying to force the nation to bend to their rules and regulations that they drew up to replace God.
it holds fundamental Christian beliefs, and although i disagree with how they interpret and execute these beliefs, it's theirs.

please be careful when asserting your opinions.


this is the Christian Coalition's website:

http://www.cc.org/
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Old 09-25-2002, 03:13 PM   #6
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Yo Melon-
How is Boston?

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Boston is fun.

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Old 09-25-2002, 03:25 PM   #7
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Originally posted by Lilly
it holds fundamental Christian beliefs, and although i disagree with how they interpret and execute these beliefs, it's theirs.

please be careful when asserting your opinions.
See? More leftist intellectual pacificism. But what does the Christian Coalition say to those who "interpret and execute" beliefs different from theirs? Condemns them to hell and tries to force its will on America in the form of state and some federal legislative activism.

The question I pose, ultimately, is why should I extend respect and understanding to people or groups who clearly refuse to extend the same courtesy? And, in terms of violent groups, why the hell should we remotely even be diplomatic with them?

I was pondering the nature of Palestine the other day, and I came to the realization that the West Bank / Gaza Strip are being led by a "former" terrorist organization, the PLO. Now perhaps we see why Israel has difficulty dealing with this entity as is? I could perhaps see similar conflict if the IRA got autonomy in Northern Ireland.

Just random ponderings. I would be interested in hearing everyone's opinions. It seems like a good day for a semiotical debate...

Melon
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Old 09-25-2002, 04:09 PM   #8
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yes. actually there is. the way the bush administration handled the days surrounding 9/11 was impeccable.
Impeccable? No. Now I do admit the way his administration handled the aftermath of 9/11 was very respectful, but by no means impeccable. There's a lot of debate as to what could have been done to prevent this, that there was evidence that the FBI and CIA "had warning". And the fact that there is this debate, for we will never know the extent of information gathered, leaves his administration with many flaws on how the handled 9/11.

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it holds fundamental Christian beliefs, and although i disagree with how they interpret and execute these beliefs, it's theirs.
I know an extensive amount about the CC. I have a dear friend who is a lobbyist and very active in this organization. And yes it holds fundamental Christian beliefs, but that's where it stops. Yes it believes in God and Jesus Christ, but then so does a majority of the U.S.(this is a Judeo-Christian culture) but the actions are far from Christ like. It is in fact a very extremest group, it's far right, and that's something they are proud of. My view may have come off strong, but a lot of what I said is just fact.
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Old 09-25-2002, 04:40 PM   #9
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While some of the blame for not preventing 9/11 belongs with the Bush Administration, the vast majority of it belongs to the previous Clinton administration that had 8 years to deal with all these problems and is partly responsible for the capabilities of the CIA and FBI when Bush first took office only 7 months before the attacks. Bush may of had 7 months, all be it, its difficult to change anything in the first 6 months of a new administration. But Clinton had 8 years!
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Old 09-25-2002, 04:45 PM   #10
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I am truly concerned with the growing tension concentrated on accusations of 'growing anti-Americanism'. I am, at best, baffled by such notices.

Whats more baffling, is how as the stakes get higher, people's temperaments also rise. This isn't whats baffling, what's baffling is the nature of the temperaments and who the people who have them are. We have people in Germany upset and anxious over this continuing chapter on the war on Terrorism, when they shouldn't be. From the very beginning, I have been of the opinion that this was NOT a war that involved everybody. For instance, Germany wasn't attacked. Hell, Britain wasn't attacked, and yet for some reason there is a logic going round that says that Europe should go along with this without hesitation.

When people say 'Anti-Americanism', its usually a term given to anyone who will NOT go along with Bush on this one, and that is inexcusable. Its a growing nuisance to see Shroeder having to actually fear visiting the US 'in five year's time', as a British reporter joked, simply because he was being more outspoken than most Europeans are in their disagreement with this problem.

Now, I've already talked about my opposition to attacking Iraq, my point is no one should be accused of 'Anti-Americanism' simply because they disagree with the current course of action. The term 'Anti-Americanism', has been used far too liberally, in my opinion. The only true 'Anti-Americanism' I've seen so far is 9/11.

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Old 09-25-2002, 05:09 PM   #11
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Germany was not physically attacked, nor was Britain. But there were attacks planned for both countries that were foiled. In addition planning for many attacks to place in Germany. Also given the interdependent nature of international economics and trade, an attack on the USA is an attack on Germany and the UK. In terms of Economics and trade, its getting to the point that Germany and the UK are as much apart of the USA as Mississippi is. Thats the reality of globalism. Of course lets not forget that the USA, UK, and Germany are all apart of the NATO alliance in which an attack on one, is an attack on all. This small rift between the USA and Germany will pass. Are interdependent relationship economically and culturally is to strong for little rifts.
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Old 09-25-2002, 05:10 PM   #12
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Originally posted by Anthony
The term 'Anti-Americanism', has been used far too liberally, in my opinion. The only true 'Anti-Americanism' I've seen so far is 9/11.

Ant.
Anthony, that's one of FYM's greatest hits. Thank you.
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Old 09-25-2002, 06:01 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony
I am truly concerned with the growing tension concentrated on accusations of 'growing anti-Americanism'. I am, at best, baffled by such notices.

Whats more baffling, is how as the stakes get higher, people's temperaments also rise. This isn't whats baffling, what's baffling is the nature of the temperaments and who the people who have them are. We have people in Germany upset and anxious over this continuing chapter on the war on Terrorism, when they shouldn't be. From the very beginning, I have been of the opinion that this was NOT a war that involved everybody. For instance, Germany wasn't attacked. Hell, Britain wasn't attacked, and yet for some reason there is a logic going round that says that Europe should go along with this without hesitation.

When people say 'Anti-Americanism', its usually a term given to anyone who will NOT go along with Bush on this one, and that is inexcusable. Its a growing nuisance to see Shroeder having to actually fear visiting the US 'in five year's time', as a British reporter joked, simply because he was being more outspoken than most Europeans are in their disagreement with this problem.

Now, I've already talked about my opposition to attacking Iraq, my point is no one should be accused of 'Anti-Americanism' simply because they disagree with the current course of action. The term 'Anti-Americanism', has been used far too liberally, in my opinion. The only true 'Anti-Americanism' I've seen so far is 9/11.

Ant.
Agreed.

I remember friends of mine and I were accused of being "anti-American" after 9/11 simply because we did not support Bush and his decision to attack Afghanistan. That bugged me. That and when some people told me that if I didn't like our president or if I didn't like what our country was doing or how we were acting with regards to the decision to attack Afghanistan, I could "shut up and leave". I guess freedom of speech didn't mean squat to some of the people I had encountered.

If someone supported Bush's decisions, fine. I don't understand why they do, but if they do, that's their opinion.

But I'm entitled to my opinion as well.

Angela
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Old 09-25-2002, 06:39 PM   #14
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. Also given the interdependent nature of international economics and trade, an attack on the USA is an attack on Germany and the UK. In terms of Economics and trade, its getting to the point that Germany and the UK are as much apart of the USA as Mississippi is.
Then, by implication, everytime the IRA ever attacked Britain it was also an attack on the USA. That is clearly not the way it has been seen, now is it? What has been seen is Britain going it alone for decades while IRA attacks have continued mercilessly in their campaign of terror. I never saw a British Prime Minister go on about how it was 'our war'. I'm not drawing attention to the fact that Britain wasn't helped, I am drawing attention to the fact that it was a British problem and it was always addressed as such.

According to yout theory, everytime there is an incident, everytime there is an attack on a country, it involves others. I regret to observe that THIS observation is only made when it suits the relevant parties. I never saw any American forces invading IRA-friendly parts of Northern Ireland.

In the theory proposed by yourself, everyime the USA is attacked, its an attack on Germany and the UK. Is the reverse the same to you? When there's an attack on Germany or the UK, is that also an attack on the USA? I think you will find that the theory doesn't work that way, and that disproportionate aspect of the whole scenario is what is clearly wrong in logic; its all fine to say that attacking the US is attacking the UK, but when is the reverse ever considered?

In terms of Economics and Trade, President Bush has always made it quite clear that it is AMERICAN interests that take preference in global matters. His backing out of the Kyoto Protocol was mainly because of his interest in how it would affect the American Economy, was it not? The whole increase on the tariffs incident as seen earlier on this year showed how 'interdependent' we all are. Clearly not so 'interdependent' that American interests don't need to prevail. Well, I admire the other side of the coin as well. In my case, I want European interests to prevail, and I don't see how a war is going to make our economies healthier - I'd rather just see the US go to war and weaken their own economy, rather than have other countries weaken their economy for no apparent reason to them.

No, I am not saying that I wish the American Economy ill will, I am merely showing the times. We are clearly NOT that interdependent when it suits certain people at the top, and I do hold some resentment to the notion that we are only totally interdepent, connected and 'culturally linked' when it suits the politicians.

The truth is we're not. And Bush's war is not Europe's war, either.

Ant.
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Old 09-25-2002, 07:04 PM   #15
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Re: I look forward to post-ideology...

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I guess as long as Al-Qaeda doesn't strike anything else but America--since they "clearly" deserve it, according to Canadian opinion polls--then America should just shut up and take it?
melon, where did you read about this poll?
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