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Old 09-15-2002, 10:43 AM   #1
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I have no clue why people defend the Reagan Administration

It's ridiculous...look at almost every major place teh US is concerned with now. Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan. All places that recieved arms and support from the Reagan administration. It's a shame that most of the terrorists we fight now were actually funded by perhaps the most inept and short sighted administration to date ( I'm not counting this one till it's over).


We gave Iraq monye and arms to fight iran...now we're fighting a war with iraq, and iran hates us..brilliant. We gave Afghanistan the ability to fight off the soviets and ended up fighting a war there. And then Pakistan which is terrorist state, now needs to be propped up in order to keep nuclear arms out of extremists hands.....they dont' mention that the nuclear deployment prgram pakistan built was with US help from the reagan administration do they? The man was an actor not a president, and the fact that he is was the most popular president in US history is a shame on us Americans. He made people believe that nicaragua and El salvador were threats to the US which perhaps is one of the most profound dupings of the american people in history.


Bottom line the last 10 years of the last century and the next 50 of this one are going to be mopping up for the reagan adminisration..ended communism...hardly...china still exists people. Also...I'd liek to point out that regimes like iraq restrict freedoms a lot more than the Soviets ever did.

The american people made mistakes...I hope we learn from them. And lets' hope that whatever is done with iraq doesn't bite us in the ass again. the Reagan administration was perhaps the Greatest failure in terms of the long term protection of the american people.


also....bin laden...was a creation of the Reagan administration.


Our entire war on terror...is a result of shortsighted and in fact down right idiotic policies durign the 80's

*waits for diamond to put up a futile argument*
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Old 09-15-2002, 11:15 AM   #2
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LOL.

I can't wait to see dave --intelligently-- debate this.

*cough*
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Old 09-15-2002, 01:02 PM   #3
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Listen to me You 2.
I wont be baited.
I see the both of you, in my mind's eye AIMing ea other like a virtual "dynamic duo"
a "frick and frack" pair, giggling thinking you got me.

Well 2 words-
No Sale.

I will say this-
Nobody has a crystal ball, re what coulda transpried after what Regan accomplished.
He is not responsible for the future sins of terrorists/rouge govts ..
You have the mindset of a Monday morning Quaterback.
Give me a break.
Reagan was a great world leader..you will not take that from him.
Damn kids

DB9
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Old 09-15-2002, 01:51 PM   #4
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Re: I have no clue why people defend the Reagan Administration

Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V
It's ridiculous...look at almost every major place teh US is concerned with now. Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan. All places that recieved arms and support from the Reagan administration. It's a shame that most of the terrorists we fight now were actually funded by perhaps the most inept and short sighted administration to date ( I'm not counting this one till it's over).
Not sure what to say. We have had problems with Muslim Extremists long before Reagan came into power. The US Government had been fighting The COLD WAR since WWII. This was the Administrations main concern, as it was the concern of every other administration prior to Reagan.

Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V
We gave Iraq monye and arms to fight iran...now we're fighting a war with iraq, and iran hates us..brilliant.
We also gave Iran Weapons. The war with Iraq has nothing at all to do with Reagan. Saddam Hussein invaded another country. He has used "weapons of mass destruction" on his own people as well as others. If anything, our current administration is most likely worried about them lobbing some nasty stuff on Israel.

From my recent readings in BREAKDOWN, by Bill Gertz, it appears that there are more links between IRAN and al Qaeda than with Iraq. However Iran hated us long before Reagan. Should we blame President Carter for the Iranian revolution?


Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V
Bottom line the last 10 years of the last century and the next 50 of this one are going to be mopping up for the reagan adminisration..ended communism...hardly...china still exists people. Also...I'd liek to point out that regimes like iraq restrict freedoms a lot more than the Soviets ever did.
And in 1980 when Reagan took office Iran and Iraq had how many satellite countries on our shores? You forget that the COLD WAR was on when he took office. Cuba had already attempted to place Nuclear weapons from the Soviet Union in its country. Who was to say that El Salvador, Nicaragua would not attempt the same?

You are right, the COLD WAR was not the end of Communism. Reagan is responsible for ending the COLD WAR. There is a difference!

The Soviet Empire and Satellite countries were perceived as the main threat to our nation. If you can show that from 1980-1988 that there was some threat by an Islamic Nation near our shores, I might agree with you. However, the threat existed that we were in danger of having short-range nukes in countries like Cuba, Nicaragua, El Salvador.

I for one am glad that they failed!

Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V
The american people made mistakes...I hope we learn from them. And lets' hope that whatever is done with iraq doesn't bite us in the ass again. the Reagan administration was perhaps the Greatest failure in terms of the long term protection of the american people. [/B]
Again, would you be happy with Nukes on our shores in the possession of third world nations?

As for failure to protect us, the hands of our protection agencies have been tied by congress since the 1970's. Our military was decimated by cuts from the Clinton Administration. Our courts have hindered our FBI and not allowed to follow leads because of Political Correctness and not allowing profiling. The CIA now has more lawyers than field agents, and the recruitment of foreigners, specifically Muslim spys was frowned upon during the Clinton years, many of our Middle Eastern field agents were fired when Robert Toricelli DEM NJ changed the rules by which our CIA was allowed to recruit people.

The failures are directly related to the character of the people we elect. That is where the mistakes have been made.


Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V
also....bin laden...was a creation of the Reagan administration.


Our entire war on terror...is a result of shortsighted and in fact down right idiotic policies durign the 80's[/B]
Was bin Laden supported by our country during the Afghan war? Yes. No argument there. Regan created him? He had the money and funding to be what he is without our support. Our War on terror has more to do with our countries inability to shift from COLD WAR mode. September 11th, has hopefully forced us to change faster.

Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V *waits for diamond to put up a futile argument* [/B]
GO DIAMOND....GOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
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Old 09-15-2002, 01:53 PM   #5
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my grandma and i use the term "frick and frack" and no one gets it, nice someone does

Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Nobody has a crystal ball, re what coulda transpried after what Regan accomplished.


DB9

what he accomplished? i only had 6 years in the 80s, and i may only clearly remember bush years, but it doesn't mean i don't know what reagan's "accomplishments" did to my family. he massacred middle class with his economic policies. in fact he decimated it, it was virtually GONE by 1988. and since my family were middle class we slowly moved lower and lower on the economic scale, for NO reason. we weren't making less, no we were paying more taxes and thusly spending more. and what were we barely affording? taxes that paid to send aid and weapons to the middle east so they would fight the "reds" for us so we didn't directly have to escalate the cold war into a hot one.

i see your point with hindsight diamond. and you make a very good one. but, he should have learned from vietnam that we don't just go into countries then pull out. and i hope sincerely that gw bush watches what happened under the reagan administration so as not to make the same mistakes twice.
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Old 09-15-2002, 02:38 PM   #6
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Re: my grandma and i use the term "frick and frack" and no one gets it, nice someone does

Quote:
Originally posted by Lilly
what he accomplished? i only had 6 years in the 80s, and i may only clearly remember bush years, but it doesn't mean i don't know what reagan's "accomplishments" did to my family. he massacred middle class with his economic policies. in fact he decimated it, it was virtually GONE by 1988. and since my family were middle class we slowly moved lower and lower on the economic scale, for NO reason. we weren't making less, no we were paying more taxes and thusly spending more. and what were we barely affording? taxes that paid to send aid and weapons to the middle east so they would fight the "reds" for us so we didn't directly have to escalate the cold war into a hot one.
You talk about the Cold War like it was not a real threat? It was a real threat. As for economics, would you have preferred to have seen the unemployment and the gas lines of the 1970's? I am sorry, but my grandparents and great-grandparents lived through two world wars and a depression to fight for what was right in this world. Show me the figures please! Eliminated the middle class? If the policies of the 1980's put a strain on people, and I am not saying they did or did not, they pale in comparison to the sacrifices other generations have made for the world. The policies of 1980 were necessary to bring about an end to over forty years of the Cold War. It was a sacrifice for them and the 80's may well have been a sacrifice to end the Cold War and make your world a much safer place.

Quote:
Originally posted by Lilly

i see your point with hindsight diamond. and you make a very good one. but, he should have learned from vietnam that we don't just go into countries then pull out. and i hope sincerely that gw bush watches what happened under the reagan administration so as not to make the same mistakes twice.
If you are referring to Iraq with that statement should we wait for them to attack Israel? Would that be an acceptable scenario?

If you are referring to Afghanistan, should we have waited for the Taliban to turn over Osama? We were attacked.

Peace to all.
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Old 09-15-2002, 02:59 PM   #7
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Dreadsox,
Very elequoently stated.
Thank you-
-diamond-
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Old 09-15-2002, 03:01 PM   #8
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Re: Re: I have no clue why people defend the Reagan Administration

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


Not sure what to say. We have had problems with Muslim Extremists long before Reagan came into power. The US Government had been fighting The COLD WAR since WWII. This was the Administrations main concern, as it was the concern of every other administration prior to Reagan.



We also gave Iran Weapons. The war with Iraq has nothing at all to do with Reagan. Saddam Hussein invaded another country. He has used "weapons of mass destruction" on his own people as well as others. If anything, our current administration is most likely worried about them lobbing some nasty stuff on Israel.

From my recent readings in BREAKDOWN, by Bill Gertz, it appears that there are more links between IRAN and al Qaeda than with Iraq. However Iran hated us long before Reagan. Should we blame President Carter for the Iranian revolution?




And in 1980 when Reagan took office Iran and Iraq had how many satellite countries on our shores? You forget that the COLD WAR was on when he took office. Cuba had already attempted to place Nuclear weapons from the Soviet Union in its country. Who was to say that El Salvador, Nicaragua would not attempt the same?

You are right, the COLD WAR was not the end of Communism. Reagan is responsible for ending the COLD WAR. There is a difference!

The Soviet Empire and Satellite countries were perceived as the main threat to our nation. If you can show that from 1980-1988 that there was some threat by an Islamic Nation near our shores, I might agree with you. However, the threat existed that we were in danger of having short-range nukes in countries like Cuba, Nicaragua, El Salvador.

I for one am glad that they failed!



Again, would you be happy with Nukes on our shores in the possession of third world nations?

As for failure to protect us, the hands of our protection agencies have been tied by congress since the 1970's. Our military was decimated by cuts from the Clinton Administration. Our courts have hindered our FBI and not allowed to follow leads because of Political Correctness and not allowing profiling. The CIA now has more lawyers than field agents, and the recruitment of foreigners, specifically Muslim spys was frowned upon during the Clinton years, many of our Middle Eastern field agents were fired when Robert Toricelli DEM NJ changed the rules by which our CIA was allowed to recruit people.

The failures are directly related to the character of the people we elect. That is where the mistakes have been made.




Was bin Laden supported by our country during the Afghan war? Yes. No argument there. Regan created him? He had the money and funding to be what he is without our support. Our War on terror has more to do with our countries inability to shift from COLD WAR mode. September 11th, has hopefully forced us to change faster.



GO DIAMOND....GOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!




How many Us citizens did the Soviet Union kill on our soil????



How many Us citizens has terrorism killed on our soil?


We had problems with Muslim extremists??? not to this extent not to the extent where we had to worry about them getting nukes. And ...The Unitesd states did support the Hussein regime in the 80's against Iran. Then when Reagan realized what he had done....well...he tried to undo it..but too little too late.


Before we could see the enemy....now we dont' even have that luxury.


The cold war honestly wasn't the biggest threat to the United states because teh Soviets loved life more than they hated us...can you say the say thing about these terrorists???

Also they already had misslies in Cuba...do you think nukes in El salvador and nicaragua posed a greater danger?? what they are goign to wipe us out 3 times??? instead of once?



Reagan failed to understand the long term implications of his actions..bottom line. You've also failed to address the realtionship with pakistan and how now we've got to clean up there. Also the fact that pakistan had created coross border terro for DECADES. and yet they were supported by reagan....brilliant.
Only with the Clinton administration did the United states finally criticize pakistan for it's role in terrorism.


As for this....we taught bin laden how to hide money and how to transfer it this is the BIGGEST contribution to can do for a terrorist organization.
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Old 09-15-2002, 03:09 PM   #9
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Ahem-

A Diamond Prediction..
In the next 10 yrs Arun will leave the Democrat Party and
either register as a-
Republican
or
An Independent.


This will cuz his father "Dr V" great concern and mild chess pains
His mom "Mrs Dr V" will console Dr V. explaining Arun is now a grown man..ect

Arun will b a Dr and a player in Politics.

You heard it here first folks

-off to work..

Dave
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Old 09-15-2002, 03:22 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elvis
LOL.

I can't wait to see dave --intelligently-- debate this.

*cough*

Will that ever happen?

USA governments, specially CIA has been always making "their" enemies so big, sometimes by propaganda, sometimes even "creating them" as Arun has intelligently pointed, remember how El Salvador and Nicaragua were such a BIG threat? its proved that CIA agents during years happened to exagerate the capabilities of the USSR, why they did this? to keep their jobs? because it was in interest of arms builders? in the end USSR collapsed on his economical troubles.

I have heard many stories as the one of Lilly were many americans had a hard time with reagonomics, its really hard that someone can defend Ronald.
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Old 09-15-2002, 03:34 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
You talk about the Cold War like it was not a real threat?
no, i didn't mean that at all. if you received that tone, then i apologize. i did not specify my opinion on the cold war.

Quote:
As for economics, would you have preferred to have seen the unemployment and the gas lines of the 1970's?
i wasn't talking about the 70s. i was talking about when reagan was president, which was 80-88, not the 70s. if you want to talk about bad economy, we can talk about the depression.

Quote:
If you are referring to Iraq with that statement should we wait for them to attack Israel? Would that be an acceptable scenario?
i never said we should wait. i didn't say that at all. my point was we need to learn from past mistakes. we cannot just drop out of afghanistan, it creates economic instability and will leave the country in ruins. it happened more than once before, i hope that gw bush looks at the mistakes of his predicesors and learns from them.


please don't put words in my mouth. i wouldn't do it to you and i expect the same treatment back. thank you.

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Old 09-15-2002, 03:34 PM   #12
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Re: Re: Re: I have no clue why people defend the Reagan Administration

Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V


How many Us citizens did the Soviet Union kill on our soil????

How many Us citizens has terrorism killed on our soil?
You seriously hold someone out of office for 14 years responsible for 9/11?????

Try looking at Congress and our Courts.


Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V

We had problems with Muslim extremists??? not to this extent not to the extent where we had to worry about them getting nukes. And ...The Unitesd states did support the Hussein regime in the 80's against Iran. Then when Reagan realized what he had done....well...he tried to undo it..but too little too late.
I am sorry, but maybe if Mr. Clinton had done something other than lob a few missles after our Embassies were bombed and after the Cole was bombed and after the Trade Center Bombing, we would not have had a 9/11. Give me a break. After the revolution in Iran you think he was wrong for supporting Iraq. He did not change sides, he wanted to raise money to fight the Contras. Iran was the tool.

Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V

Before we could see the enemy....now we dont' even have that luxury.
We could see the enemy if our Intelligence agencies. Immigration Services, and the FBI were not decimated over the past twenty years by allowing political correctness to dominate our courts and congress.

Lets look at the fact that we do not go after illegal immigrants because it is not PC to do so. Sorry, but our own Political Correctness and fear to profile and follow through with our own laws has allowed 9/11 to occur.

Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V

The cold war honestly wasn't the biggest threat to the United states because teh Soviets loved life more than they hated us...can you say the say thing about these terrorists???
In 1980 the Terrorists were the biggest threats? No. Was the growth of Soviet Sattelites a bigger threat to our security? YES. I do not know about you but I feel better knowing that there are not missles in the third world countries I listed before.


Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V

Also they already had misslies in Cuba...do you think nukes in El salvador and nicaragua posed a greater danger?? what they are goign to wipe us out 3 times??? instead of once?
That is my point. Reagan prevented further missles from entering our region. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Little history class here....Missle made it to Cuba and were removed thanks to Kennedy. I am saying thanks to Reagan they did not make it into places like Nicaragua and El Salvador.

Wiping us out once would be enough. I, for one am thankful the Bomb is not in these places today though. Very good forsight on the part of Reagan and his predicessors.


Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V

Reagan failed to understand the long term implications of his actions..bottom line. You've also failed to address the realtionship with pakistan and how now we've got to clean up there. Also the fact that pakistan had created coross border terro for DECADES. and yet they were supported by reagan....brilliant.
Only with the Clinton administration did the United states finally criticize pakistan for it's role in terrorism.
I am not going to comment on Pakistan. I will leave that to someone who knows somehting about the topic. A man has to know his limitations. Unfortunately, I am weak on this topic. That said, the people over there in INdia and Pakistan have been fighting for thousands of years. Kinda hard to blame Reagan for that. Again, I will let someone else fight this point.

Peace
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Old 09-15-2002, 03:44 PM   #13
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Again very well said Dread

iam glad how Pakistan is co-operating in The War On Terror..
DB9
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Old 09-15-2002, 03:53 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lilly


no, i didn't mean that at all. if you received that tone, then i apologize. i did not specify my opinion on the cold war.
No problem....something about fighting the "reds" seemed to indicate this to me.

Quote:
Originally posted by Lilly

i wasn't talking about the 70s. i was talking about when reagan was president, which was 80-88, not the 70s. if you want to talk about bad economy, we can talk about the depression.
My reference to the 80' was to point out that things were better under Reagan in the 80's than in th 1970's. My reference to the WWI, WWII, and the depression time period was that they sacrificed many things to accomplish what needed to be done.
Any chance that the economic policies of the 1980's were equally as important a sacrafice to end the Cold War? That was my point.

Quote:
Originally posted by Lilly

i never said we should wait. i didn't say that at all. my point was we need to learn from past mistakes. we cannot just drop out of afghanistan, it creates economic instability and will leave the country in ruins. it happened more than once before, i hope that gw bush looks at the mistakes of his predicesors and learns from them.
Thanks for clearing that up. I agree. Unfortunately that is why we did not finish Saddam the first time.

Quote:
Originally posted by Lilly

please don't put words in my mouth. i wouldn't do it to you and i expect the same treatment back. thank you.
Sorry you feel this way...I reread my post, and I do not feel I put words into your mouth. I did ask which country you meant Iraq or Afghanistan. Thanks for the clarification.
Peace
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Old 09-15-2002, 03:55 PM   #15
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Re: Re: Re: Re: I have no clue why people defend the Reagan Administration

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox






I am not going to comment on Pakistan. I will leave that to someone who knows somehting about the topic. A man has to know his limitations. Unfortunately, I am weak on this topic. That said, the people over there in INdia and Pakistan have been fighting for thousands of years. Kinda hard to blame Reagan for that. Again, I will let someone else fight this point.

Peace

I will say this..you are right...upon looking at it a little More INS was by FAR the biigest weak link in preventing 9/11.



however on on pakistan...you are right..you should just keep quiet and by be quiet I dont' mean sneak one comment in that is ridiculous. Pakistan came into existence in 1947...kinda tough to fight for thousands of years, before that it was india, the british split it for some unknown reason. In fact I'm surprised you were so courageous and to brave that point when it is clear that you should have even kept that comment under your hat as it as 0 factual basis.


Diamond....pakistan is a terrorist state period....they made one arrest big whup. Ask danny pearl about the pakistanis
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