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Old 02-14-2007, 01:02 AM   #46
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Originally posted by redhotswami


exactly.
why does the u.s. feel the need to hold other countries up to standards that it doesn't even hold itself to?
Oh, but here's the best part: not only are other countries not allowed to have nukes, but the rest of us aren't allowed to object to the US doing whatever it wants with its own nukes. Don't believe me? Just look up why the US suspended its ANZUS Treaty obligations to New Zealand. You'll find it was in a completely juvenile fit of "waaa, do what we want! Your sovereignty is irrelevant!"

In any case, I'd like to contribute former New Zealand Prime Minister David Lange's incredible speech that nuclear weapons are morally indefensible to this discussion, as I feel it is relevant. For those who have the time, I recommend listening to the audio - it is amazing. Play it and remember a time when politicians were actually very eloquent and were highly skilled debators. David Lange is quite simply the most skilled orator out of all of the politicians I have ever heard. Oh yeah, and he didn't need ghostwriters either.

I suppose it is only appropriate for me to end this post with another Lange quote, one that remains relevant today. Lange was known for his quick wit, and he once remarked to the US Ambassador to New Zealand, who raced a horse called Lacka Reason, "you are the only ambassador in the world who races a horse named after his country's foreign policy".
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Old 02-14-2007, 09:36 AM   #47
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Originally posted by toscano


Right. The world was safer in 1939.
Ok, this line of thinking Kills me, if you honestly believe that the world is safer now than before Nuclear weapons were developed think about this:

"The United States maintains a current arsenal of around 9,960 intact warheads, of which 5,735 are considered active or operational."

From Wickipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear..._United_States

Now, lets assume that this is off by 1,000 warheads give or take. Remember that this is the US ALONE, this is not counting Russia or China or any other country's stockpile.

The only two bombs that have been used for military purposes were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, were 20 kilotons each and combined wiped out roughly 100,000 Japanese citizens outright and caused countless deaths due to radiation and related cancers.

Here is the frightening part; the average payload for the current stockpiled warheads is between 475 kilotons and 1 Megaton - that is 1000 Kilotons!

Forget Ferris wheels, I don't know about the rest of you but this scares the shit out of me! And I really don’t care if they are never supposed to be used again, all it takes is one slip, one accident, one person who is not thinking clearly and BANG, that’s it…
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Old 02-14-2007, 09:42 AM   #48
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Attack Israel, wipe out the Jews and bring about the occulted who can usher in global paradise under Allah.
You are aware that there are 30 million Americans who believe in armageddon and the second coming of Jesus who can't wait for it to occur in the Middle east region too so they can be lifted up to heaven during the rapture. Bush is one of them too but you don't see him launching the bombs, although his policies sometimes seem designed to create chaos instead of calm.
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Old 02-14-2007, 10:19 AM   #49
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Right. The world was safer in 1939.
Your line of thinking cracks me up. And I only laugh because if I didn't I'd cry. Many have pointed out the flaws in your thinking so I won't continue to do so.

Do you or will you continue this thinking when raising children? Do you teach them "he who carries the biggest stick"?
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Old 02-14-2007, 10:32 AM   #50
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Originally posted by Axver


Oh, but here's the best part: not only are other countries not allowed to have nukes, but the rest of us aren't allowed to object to the US doing whatever it wants with its own nukes. Don't believe me? Just look up why the US suspended its ANZUS Treaty obligations to New Zealand. You'll find it was in a completely juvenile fit of "waaa, do what we want! Your sovereignty is irrelevant!"
Oh I totally believe you. It is sad because it is true.
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Old 02-14-2007, 10:47 AM   #51
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And you trust North Korea to comply? How could our government be so naive?
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Old 02-14-2007, 02:02 PM   #52
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Originally posted by Butterscotch
And you trust North Korea to comply? How could our government be so naive?
Ronald Reagan used to say "trust but verify" when talking about nuclear disarmament. That's what this deal requires, too.
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Old 02-15-2007, 09:18 AM   #53
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Your line of thinking cracks me up.

Ditto.

If you think some mad fuck like Reagan, Brezhnev, Stalin or Mao Tse Tung wouldn't have started something without the threat of nuclear war to prevent them shows just how lacking your knowledge of history and human nature is, as well as showing how deep your head is buried in the sand.
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Old 02-15-2007, 09:36 AM   #54
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Originally posted by toscano



Ditto.

If you think some mad fuck like Reagan, Brezhnev, Stalin or Mao Tse Tung wouldn't have started something without the threat of nuclear war to prevent them shows just how lacking your knowledge of history and human nature is, as well as showing how deep your head is buried in the sand.
Ok, but let me ask you this, would you rather have a war with nuclear weapons or without?

Because that is what this discussion really comes down to as far as I'm concerned, Justin24 posed this question near the beginning of the thread:

Quote:
Do you think the world would honestly be safe with out nukes?
People have skirted around this issue saying we need nuclear weapons because others have nuclear weapons or other weapons that need to be kept in check.

What I am saying is that yes, the world would be safer if there were no nuclear weapons at all. I realize that this is probably impossible at this point but if nuclear technology had not been developed in the 1940's at all our world would be safer.
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Old 02-15-2007, 09:42 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by toscano



Ditto.

If you think some mad fuck like Reagan, Brezhnev, Stalin or Mao Tse Tung wouldn't have started something without the threat of nuclear war to prevent them shows just how lacking your knowledge of history and human nature is, as well as showing how deep your head is buried in the sand.
You're missing my point. I'm not saying wars are going to stop, with or without nukes. I'd just rather be in a war without.

If your thinking is all the big powers have nukes but just sit on them for threat's sake then your kidding yourself. They will be used or get in the hands of someone else, it's just that simple.
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