How much jail time for women who have abortions?

[CTU2fan]

OK I did a post & run here, I hate when people do that, and there I am on page one...oops.

Anyway...

I guess my problem with the whole "How much time should she do?" thing is that it just proves that the pro-choice movement really hasn't the first clue to the thought process behind a pro-life stance. I think they've been fed a story about how pro-lifers are nothing but religious fundies, misogynists, and generally narrow-minded fools, so they figure posing a challenging question such as "how much time should she do?" will really stump them. Problem is, pro-lifers see abortion as MURDER. So asking a pro-lifer that question is basically the same as asking a pro-choicer how much time a parent who kills their newborn baby should do.

Personally, if abortion were banned, I'd suggest the harshest penalties for the doctors performing them, not jail time for the women.

Abortion sucks, there's really no getting around that. And I think that's the thing that most pro-lifers don't "get"...I get the sense that a lot of the more vocal opponents of abortion think it's an easy choice that women make, or that pro-choicers actually LIKE abortions and hope for the number of abortions performed to increase. That's dumb. I'm pro-choice, but I'd rather see no abortions happening.

 

[butter7]

This could come in the form of more thorough DNA testing to identify the father when paternity is in doubt.

Or perhaps more legal teeth into the laws that force the men / fathers of the unborn baby to take responsibility for that baby from conception through a college education.

In other words, if you want to do more to PREVENT unwanted pregnancy, ramp up the legal structures around fathers taht help cause unwanted pregnancy in the first place.

There are other means too; but men get off too easy on this issue in my opinion.

Sometimes things are more complicated than just finding who is the father.

 

[BVS]

I guess my problem with the whole "How much time should she do?" thing is that it just proves that the pro-choice movement really hasn't the first clue to the thought process behind a pro-life stance.

You still don't get it...

 

[phillyfan26]

I guess my problem with the whole "How much time should she do?" thing is that it just proves that the pro-choice movement really hasn't the first clue to the thought process behind a pro-life stance. I think they've been fed a story about how pro-lifers are nothing but religious fundies, misogynists, and generally narrow-minded fools, so they figure posing a challenging question such as "how much time should she do?" will really stump them. Problem is, pro-lifers see abortion as MURDER. So asking a pro-lifer that question is basically the same as asking a pro-choicer how much time a parent who kills their newborn baby should do.

Personally, if abortion were banned, I'd suggest the harshest penalties for the doctors performing them, not jail time for the women.

Abortion sucks, there's really no getting around that. And I think that's the thing that most pro-lifers don't "get"...I get the sense that a lot of the more vocal opponents of abortion think it's an easy choice that women make, or that pro-choicers actually LIKE abortions and hope for the number of abortions performed to increase. That's dumb. I'm pro-choice, but I'd rather see no abortions happening.

They absolutely understand, and to take that stance about pro-choice people is clueless in and of itself.

I'm pro-choice and anti-abortion. I think that we need to have it legal to give a safe option, because abortions will occur, legally or not. If it's legal, at least women are safe.

 

[CTU2fan]

You still don't get it...

Don't get what, exactly?

Do you really think the loudest advocates on the pro-choice side of the debate really understand the thought process behind a pro-life stance? I'm not talking about the average person who is probably pro-choice (I don't have #'s handy but I'm quite certain pro-choice folks are a majority, at least in our country)...I'm talking about the activists on the front line...do you honestly think they get it, or even try to get it? I don't. Just like I don't think the hard-core pro-lifer that protests outside Planned Parenthood doesn't get the thought process behind a pro-choice stance...

 

[CTU2fan]

They absolutely understand, and to take that stance about pro-choice people is clueless in and of itself.

I'm pro-choice and anti-abortion. I think that we need to have it legal to give a safe option, because abortions will occur, legally or not. If it's legal, at least women are safe.

So do I.

But don't you think both sides (not the individuals on each side, but the pro-choice & pro-life "movements" as a whole) tend to take a simplistic view of the opposite side? Hell, BVS just said I don't get it and we're both pro-choice. It's true that to take that stance about pro-choicers is dumb, but it's equally dumb to make the assumptions about pro-lifers that many on the other side make.

 

[phillyfan26]

I think in this country there's too many religious pro-lifers. The ones who are not actually have reasonable arguments. I just, again, think it's about the safe alternative, and I've never seen a good argument to counter that.

 

[CTU2fan]

nm

 

[CTU2fan]

I think in this country there's too many religious pro-lifers. The ones who are not actually have reasonable arguments. I just, again, think it's about the safe alternative, and I've never seen a good argument to counter that.

Exactly. That's why I'm pro-choice. I didn't used to be.

 

[anitram]

Problem is, pro-lifers see abortion as MURDER.

Well then WHY is it improper to ask them what the appropriate penalties should be? I really don't understand your point here. Our criminal justice system operates on the notion of penalties (be it in the name of deterrence, punishment, exemplary action, etc). If you feel something is murder and consequently it should be criminalized, then you better sit down and consider what the penalty will be. I mean, those amendments to the criminal codes will have to be made and it's absolutely relevant that we discuss them. I don't see why you think this is a "simplistic" pro-choice view - it is legal issue and a matter of policy which most certainly cannot be ignored.

 

[deep]

gee whiz,
I posted a few pages back

pro-lifers will not suggest/admit serious punishment while they are just trying to move the ball down the field.


once the game is over
and they win
they will support laws for severe punishment and demand enforcement.

 

[LemonMelon]

I think that's the idea.

I'm much more conservative with my viewpoints on abortion. I'm totally against it.

That said, my personal viewpoints don't mean that legislation should be made of it. I'm pro-life and pro-choice, I guess.

For once, we definitely agree on this.

I am morally against abortion, but there's no way we need to go back to coat hangers. As long as there is demand for abortions, we might as well do it as safely as possible.

 

[BVS]

Don't get what, exactly?

Do you really think the loudest advocates on the pro-choice side of the debate really understand the thought process behind a pro-life stance? I'm not talking about the average person who is probably pro-choice (I don't have #'s handy but I'm quite certain pro-choice folks are a majority, at least in our country)...I'm talking about the activists on the front line...do you honestly think they get it, or even try to get it? I don't. Just like I don't think the hard-core pro-lifer that protests outside Planned Parenthood doesn't get the thought process behind a pro-choice stance...

Well you first stated "proves that the pro-choice movement really hasn't the first clue to the thought process behind a pro-life stance." It doesn't prove anything. And yes I do believe that the majority of pro-choice believers understand the thought process. For you to completely dismiss that, and the way you approached this discussion made you sound like one of those folks that think pro choice people enjoy abortion in some way.

 

[CTU2fan]

Well you first stated "proves that the pro-choice movement really hasn't the first clue to the thought process behind a pro-life stance." It doesn't prove anything. And yes I do believe that the majority of pro-choice believers understand the thought process. For you to completely dismiss that, and the way you approached this discussion made you sound like one of those folks that think pro choice people enjoy abortion in some way.

Alright then I can understand your reaction then...no I don't, at all. That was basically my point, that there are people on either side who either really don't understand or deliberately misconstrue the opposite position. I think there's a big chunk of pro-lifers who really DO think that the pro-choice movement's goal is MORE abortions (see financeguy's post above about the decrease in numbers of women leaving Ireland to have abortions).

I have given this a bit more thought though, and I think it is kind of interesting that a lot of pro-lifers are pro-DP...so if you're truly asking them how much time she should do, shouldn't their answer be she should get the DP?

It's a hard issue to wrestle with. So many people see it as a black&white issue, and for me it's just so far from that. In my idealistic youth I was definitely pro-life; my position was always "prove to me it (the foetus) isn't alive and I'll accept abortion" but even then I wouldn't have penalized a women who had an abortion the same as a common murderer. While I was convinced the foetus was alive, I wasn't comfortable equating foetus & baby; there was definitely a difference there. Even as I got older and followed a path toward the (far) left I could never let go of my feelings about abortion being murder. I think living with poverty is what finally did it for me. I see kids living with things you can't imagine (well, unless you're poor anyway), women struggling to hold it together for their kids, and I resigned myself to the fact that maybe abortion is a "necessary evil". I'm curious actually to hear from anyone who's changed sides as I have, and how they go there...

I think, if you're pro-life, you have to ask yourself why would a woman WANT to have an abortion? I think that's another myth that the pro-life movement likes to hang on to, that women think nothing of aborting, that they do it on a whim, or out of convenience. But it's a hard choice. The women I know who've had abortions had varying degrees of difficulty living with that decision...but what choice did they have?

So I guess my problem is, we live in a society where women are in positions where they feel their BEST option is aborting their unborn child...I'd love to see the pro-life side try to make some progress with those issues. If you really want to prevent abortions, banning them isn't the answer; correcting the problems that make them necessary. Banning them just means more illegal black market procedures, more attempts at self-abortion (by coathangers or whatever), and more dead women & foetuses.

 

[dazzlingamy]

Abortion sucks, there's really no getting around that. And I think that's the thing that most pro-lifers don't "get"...I get the sense that a lot of the more vocal opponents of abortion think it's an easy choice that women make, or that pro-choicers actually LIKE abortions and hope for the number of abortions performed to increase. That's dumb. I'm pro-choice, but I'd rather see no abortions happening.

I agree totally. And i think this is the place where things go down wrong. Anti abortionists (i don't like the term pro life, its far too "saintly" for what it stands for) are all religious. I don't think i've ever met a person whos against abortion who is not religious. And thats the crux. There is no scientific evidence that its murder, or painful, or anything like that, there are rules and regulations like before 12 weeks and so on, and it seems that only the factr that RELIGION gets in the way of peoples beliefs that it all goes screwy.

We're not a religous country, we shouldn't let some "beliefs" and i hold those ideas VERY loosely change something they have nothing to do with

 

[martha]

The women I know who've had abortions had varying degrees of difficulty living with that decision...

Real life is indeed a great eye-opener.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Anti abortionists (i don't like the term pro life, its far too "saintly" for what it stands for) are all religious. I don't think i've ever met a person whos against abortion who is not religious. And thats the crux.

Well, financeguy posted a link of at least one atheist anti-abortionist (or however you like to call them, but I agree with you, this is a bit more neutral).
I'm sure there are more who aren't religious.

 

[Butterscotch]

I'm not religious but I don't support abortion on demand, only in special cases like mother's life or rape, not just because you changed your mind. I am also pro death penalty in extreme cases and pro assisted suicide for the terminally ill, which means I am not pro life. Other than this, I am basically left wing and don't like Bush.

 

[martha]

I'm not religious but I don't support abortion on demand, only in special cases like mother's life or rape, not just because you changed your mind.

Well, then, let's ask you: What should be the penalty for a woman who undergoes an abortion for a reason you don't support?

 

[dazzlingamy]

see but its a very interesting fact that anti abortionists are all quite often pro death penalty people, which i find very curious

I just don't see the thought process against being anti abortion unless you have some religious convictions. What possible reasons can be behind your thoughts if not "its a baby its alive its gods creation blahdyblah'

Now like everyone who is pro choice i don't actually like abortions and rub my hands with glee when my friend last year went and got one. I sat with her, councilled her, hugged her while she cried a little, got drunk with her and planted a tree with her. Now shes in a relationship, working hard, going overseas for a holiday and that "casual thing" with some coke addict she had last year has not blown into a life long connection and a kid growing up into a place with no money (as she can't work) and no one to help!

 

[Infinity]

see but its a very interesting fact that anti abortionists are all quite often pro death penalty people, which i find very curious

Exactly, I don't understand that either. I happen to be pro-life but I am against the death penalty also.

 

[CTU2fan]

Exactly, I don't understand that either. I happen to be pro-life but I am against the death penalty also.

Well this is how it works...killing a guilty murderer is just, killing an innocent unborn child is not. On the surface it seems odd, to be so anti-murder in one scenario but quick to kill in the other, but really it's the guilt or innocence that drives it.

 

[CTU2fan]

Well, financeguy posted a link of at least one atheist anti-abortionist (or however you like to call them, but I agree with you, this is a bit more neutral).
I'm sure there are more who aren't religious.

For myself anyway, I'm not religious at all and I was at one time pro-life. It was actually very frustrating for me, as others around me argued against abortion while basing their contentions on faith...and I felt that their faith-based arguments against abortion were basically useless, as the people they argued with didn't share their faith. I felt like the way to convince someone that abortion was wrong was to make a rational argument about the viability of the foetus at various ages, or that the foetus was a separate being rather than just a growth/appendage/extension of the mother...but telling someone who's agnostic at best that abortion should be banned based on the belief that that unborn child is God's creation or whatever certainly isn't going to get anywhere.

 

[Butterscotch]

Well this is how it works...killing a guilty murderer is just, killing an innocent unborn child is not. On the surface it seems odd, to be so anti-murder in one scenario but quick to kill in the other, but really it's the guilt or innocence that drives it.

Exactly. The baby is an innocent victim of someone else's 'choice' and never got a chance to live. The murderer has, IMO, given up all rights to live and breathe and enjoy life, even in prison, by cruelly and intentionally depriving other people of their lives.

I don't think every single murder should get the death penalty, it should be case by case. If he killed one person in the heat of anger, lock him up for life, but if he molested and tortured 18 kids to death, dismembered their bodies and kept parts in the freezer, that fuck does not deserve to breathe or even eat bread. Get him out of this world. I cannot understand how pro abortionists believe this guy has a right to life and deserves mercy and killing him is wrong, when they're so okay with letting the baby die just because somebody decides they don't feel like dealing with it

 

[martha]

^ You haven't answered my question yet. You've gone into great detail about other penalties, I see.

 

[dazzlingamy]

Uhm, could you not use the phrase PRO ABORTION since it is not what a pro CHOICE person is?

and i believe that no one has the right to take another persons life, even if they decided to take other peoples life. I believe in locking them up for the rest of their lives, studying them to get more clues into why some people seem to be dispositioned to go off the rails, and also, because we don't have a 100% rate of conviction guilty parties. Slimy lawyers that tangle webs to decieve and lie for money can often get in the way of a fair trial. Once you add in emotions it all goes to pot.

 

[CTU2fan]

and also, because we don't have a 100% rate of conviction guilty parties

There it is, my single biggest problem with the DP. The legal system, at least in the US, is far from flawless...when you factor in deliberate corruption in the investigation & prosecution, along with the continuing racial bias that sends a disproportionate number of black men to death row...even if you don't believe the DP is ethically wrong the way in which it's applied here certainly is. [/hijack]

 

[deep]

Uhm, could you not use the phrase PRO ABORTION since it is not what a pro CHOICE person is?

people who support the right of juries to choose between the death penalty in some capital cases and life prison terms
could be considered pro-choice


likewise, if a person is considered pro-death penalty
because they want it to be an option

then I should be considered pro-abortion
because I want it to be an option

 

[martha]

people who support the right of juries to choose between the death penalty in some capital cases and life prison terms
could be considered pro-choice

Nonsense. Pro-choice means the woman who is pregnant makes the choice. For your analogy to work, the convict would make the choice.

 

[deep]

I'm not religious but I don't support abortion on demand, only in special cases like mother's life or rape, not just because you changed your mind. I am also pro death penalty in extreme cases and pro assisted suicide for the terminally ill, which means I am not pro life. Other than this, I am basically left wing and don't like Bush.

I don't believe in on-demand, at 8 months term, if it is a healthy pregnancy.

What do you think about the morning after pill or even if someone use a prescription to wash out a fertilized egg within 2- 3 weeks?