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Old 04-17-2011, 12:05 PM   #256
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I see a lot of people cherry-picking issues and calling themselves libertarian.

Something like:
  • Don't want the government to take my guns
  • Support the war on terror
  • Support religion to dictate how people other than myself should live their lives
  • Still want to cash my social security checks



I feel the U.S. has a lot of citizens worried about the wrong shit, and a big reason is that the current Republican party has convinced the middle class that it's at war with the poor, inner city class (oh, and communism, still). Pretty effective smokescreen. Meanwhile, corporations are now considered to be individuals.
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Old 04-17-2011, 04:34 PM   #257
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The boundaries are as undefined as the objective standard for 'proper size of Govt'. It's an ongoing debate.

True Libertarians of any stripe are hard to find but especially in the public sphere (politicians). Because most on the Right or Left that call themselves Libertarian just have libertarian views and want to say "I'm not some ideologue wacko like those other people!" Still doesn't make them true Libertarian.

Of course 'degree of Govt intrusion' is a tough line to distinguish.
One person's 'Big Bad Govt' is another's 'Moderate Necessity'. Like gun control...I am a civil libertarian in the sense that I think it's a right that shouldn't be revoked but I'm also in favor or regulation for safety concerns. So I can't call myself Libertarian on that issue...not really.

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Originally Posted by BVS View Post
Shouldn't a libertarian not lean left or right?
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
what is a conservative libertarian? seems like a contradiction in terms. if you're really a libertarian, bring on the sex and drugs and atheism.
People mostly aren't aware that it really doesn't refer specifically to Left/Right politics or those issues, but how you believe w/r/t Govt's role. So you can be a conservative or liberal libertarian, they are just few and far between.

You can have libertarian views - I certainly have them - but you can't demand intrusive Govt (directly in your private affairs) and then call yourself a Libertarian. That goes for those that support gun control or support engaging in needless battles across the globe to enforce democracy on other countries.

Bill Maher, obviously a liberal, calls himself a libertarian and supports the idea that the Govt should FORCE you to buy health insurance. But he's not a Libertarian NOT because he's a liberal (on any given social stance) but because he advocates for heavy Govt interference on that issue. He calls himself a libertarian because he's not a Leftist moron and doesn't want to be considered in the same breath with Leftist morons like Michael Moore.

Believe it or not, you can have conservative views and still believe it's not up to the Govt to enforce them. Libertarians, like Authoritarians (practically ALL Democrats and Republicans) certainly can lean Left or Right. Ron Paul seems to be the best example of a Conservative Libertarian but even then, I believe (don't know for certain) he thinks abortion should be dealt with at the State level. Which is still Govt intrusion.

I think people like Iron Horse are libertarian on a lot of issues...but there isn't that much of a difference if you're just picking and choosing which Big Govt programs you like. It's hard to be a principled Libertarian. Civil liberties is my #1 issue...but I can't call myself a Libertarian because I care about poor people and the elderly enough to think we need those social safety nets.

However on a lot of other issues, I would agree with Iron Horse.
Well...I'm not remotely a Fundamental Christian but on individual liberties, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1131 View Post
I feel the U.S. has a lot of citizens worried about the wrong shit, and a big reason is that the current Republican party has convinced the middle class that it's at war with the poor, inner city class (oh, and communism, still). Pretty effective smokescreen. Meanwhile, corporations are now considered to be individuals.
The real problem is that BOTH of those parties 1) have a stranglehold on control and 2) are corporate behemoths unto themselves.

Pointing the finger at the Big Bad Republicans, misses the point. The alternative isn't any better because they are ineffective. So even if those people voted in their best interest (as many did in '06 and '08) what are they getting? Mostly more of the same...and compounded by the idea that the stuff that WILL help them, is incompetent.

Such as the HC bill that will likely be ruled unconstitutional.
That's it in a nutshell, really. Shitty vs Shittier.
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Old 04-22-2011, 11:17 AM   #258
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NEW YORK (Reuters) - Republican Mitt Romney has drawn almost even with President Barack Obama in a new poll asking U.S. voters who they would support if the two men ran against each other in the 2012 U.S. presidential election.

The McClatchy-Marist poll released Wednesday showed Obama with the support of 46 percent of 1,084 registered voters surveyed, compared to 45 percent for Romney, in a hypothetical match-up between the Democratic president and the Republican who is exploring a possible presidential run.

Nine percent of respondants said they were undecided. In a January poll, Obama led Romney 51 percent to 38 percent.

Romney, the former governor of Massachusetts, this month formed an exploratory committee to raise money for a challenge to Obama in the 2012 election.

The poll offered more sobering news for Obama. Forty-four percent of the registered voters questioned said they definitely plan to vote against Obama in 2012, while 37 percent said they definitely plan to vote for him and 18 percent were unsure.

Obama, who has announced plans to seek re-election, holds bigger leads over other possible Republican challengers than against Romney, according to the McClatchy-Marist poll.

Obama led former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee 48 percent to 43 percent with 9 percent undecided. Huckabee has said he will wait until summer to make a decision on whether to seek the Republican nomination to face Obama.

Pitted against former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin, Obama led 56 percent to 34 percent with 10 percent undecided.

Obama held a similar lead against real estate tycoon Donald Trump -- 54 percent to 38 percent with 8 percent undecided. Trump has been flirting with a 2012 presidential run.

Romney led the potential Republican field when poll respondents who described themselves as Republicans or Republican-leaning independents were asked who they would vote for if the party's presidential primary was held today. Romney drew the support of 18 percent, followed by Huckabee with 17 percent and Trump with 13 percent.

"If there is a silver lining for his (Obama's) re-election, it's the lack of clarity in the GOP field,'' said Lee Miringoff, director of the Marist College Institute for Public Opinion, referring to the potential Republican candidates.

The poll had a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.
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Old 04-22-2011, 02:07 PM   #259
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Obviously all Republicans aren't like these people-and I love South Carolina, I've been there several times. They said crazy, I didn't I wonder if Michele Bachmann picked up the flag..Romney doesn't even register in SC, not even with the guy with the Red Sox hat.


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Old 04-22-2011, 04:19 PM   #260
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Republican Mitt Romney has drawn almost even with President Barack Obama in a new poll asking U.S. voters who they would support if the two men ran against each other in the 2012 U.S. presidential election.
Barring the entry of some strong new candidate into the field, I'll be astounded if the GOP doesn't rally around Romney by primary time. I can't stand Mitt Romney, but the notion that anyone could find Palin or Trump preferable to him as presidential material leaves me utterly gobsmacked. Huckabee I can understand a little better, he was a competent governor, it's mostly when he turns to foreign policy (or dips his toe into birtherism) that he starts to sound politically suicidal.

Long time to go yet though...
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Old 04-22-2011, 06:57 PM   #261
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Barring the entry of some strong new candidate into the field, I'll be astounded if the GOP doesn't rally around Romney by primary time. I can't stand Mitt Romney, but the notion that anyone could find Palin or Trump preferable to him as presidential material leaves me utterly gobsmacked. Huckabee I can understand a little better, he was a competent governor, it's mostly when he turns to foreign policy (or dips his toe into birtherism) that he starts to sound politically suicidal.

Long time to go yet though...
Heaven help us all if they rally around Tim Pawlenty.

He's a useless tool in sheep's clothing.
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Old 04-28-2011, 11:24 AM   #262
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NationalJournal.com - Giuliani Leaves the 'Door Open' for 2012, Praises Trump - Thursday, April 28, 2011

Maybe he'll announce his candidacy on the 10th Anniversary of Sept. 11.
He is that classy.
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Old 04-28-2011, 01:34 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by yolland View Post
Barring the entry of some strong new candidate into the field, I'll be astounded if the GOP doesn't rally around Romney by primary time. I can't stand Mitt Romney, but the notion that anyone could find Palin or Trump preferable to him as presidential material leaves me utterly gobsmacked. Huckabee I can understand a little better, he was a competent governor, it's mostly when he turns to foreign policy (or dips his toe into birtherism) that he starts to sound politically suicidal.

Long time to go yet though...
Romney to me is the least of the evils in Republican land right now. I just wonder how he will get out of the primaries which normally only attract the rabid base.

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NationalJournal.com - Giuliani Leaves the 'Door Open' for 2012, Praises Trump - Thursday, April 28, 2011

Maybe he'll announce his candidacy on the 10th Anniversary of Sept. 11.
He is that classy.
He would. Ugh.
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Old 04-28-2011, 03:21 PM   #264
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Romney McCain to me is the least of the evils in Republican land right now. I just wonder how he will get out of the primaries which normally only attract the rabid base.


see above
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Old 04-28-2011, 04:37 PM   #265
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Rasmussen Reports, April 28 - National GOP Primary Poll
Quote:
A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey of likely Republican primary voters finds Trump with 19% support, just ahead of the former governors, Massachusetts’ Romney at 17% and Arkansas’ Huckabee with 15%.

Former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin and ex-House Speaker Newt Gingrich are tied for fourth place with 9% each, closely followed by Texas Congressman Ron Paul at 8%. Rounding out the list are former Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty (5%) and Mitch Daniels, the current governor of Indiana (3%). 5% like some other candidate, and 11% are undecided when presented with this list of candidates.
Quote:
Trump is the top choice of likely primary voters who are Tea Party members with 22% support, compared to 16% support among non-members. Romney is the top choice of those who are not members of the grassroots movement. Huckabee runs strongest among primary voters who are Evangelical Christians, with 23% support. Romney leads among other Protestants and is tied with Trump among Catholic voters.
Re: deep's comment -- the report does point out that McCain didn't lead their primary polls until December 2007. (Although, the ratio of serious candidates to buffoons was higher in 2007...)
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Old 04-28-2011, 04:42 PM   #266
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What does this prove? To get the Tea Party vote you should be an out of touch, hypocritical birther.

To get the Evangelical you just have to be a hypocritical liar.
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Old 04-28-2011, 04:50 PM   #267
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What does this prove? To get the Tea Party vote you should be an out of touch, hypocritical birther.

To get the Evangelical you just have to be a hypocritical liar.
This is why I worry about Tim Pawlenty. He straddles all of those lines and is milquetoasty enough to pull it out. He's not good enough to beat Obama, but it's not impossible. He's makes the same bullshit-folksiness that Palin pushes look more genuine. (It's not, but a lot of people buy it.)


ETA--Pawlenty is an easy sacrificial lamb for the GOP, too, for 2012. He's doesn't have much of a future, especially after Dick Cheney called and told him not to run for Senate (Norm Coleman's turn).
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Old 04-28-2011, 05:55 PM   #268
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I think Trump just loves the limelight and self promotion.
If he gets in,( which I doubt) he won't go very far in the GOP primaries at all.

Trump has a long history of assisting Democrats - CNN.com
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Old 04-29-2011, 12:54 AM   #269
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ETA--Pawlenty is an easy sacrificial lamb for the GOP, too, for 2012. He's doesn't have much of a future, especially after Dick Cheney called and told him not to run for Senate (Norm Coleman's turn).


yup.
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Old 04-29-2011, 08:11 PM   #270
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Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels Will Sign Bill to Defund Planned Parenthood


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By ARLETTE SAENZ
April 29, 2011
As Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels mulls a presidential run in 2012, he announced plans to sign a bill making Indiana the first state to pull federal funding from Planned Parenthood, a move that could boost his standing among social conservatives.

"I supported this bill from the outset, and the recent addition of language guarding against the spending of tax dollars to support abortions creates no reason to alter my position." Daniels said in a statement. "The principle involved commands the support of an overwhelming majority of Hoosiers."
Seriously, what's not to like about the guy?
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