Good bye to Patriotism?

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notiti

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OK I don't come in here much (as I am sure you know) so if this has been posted before I beg forgiveness, but I felt it needed to be seen. It speaks to me very profoundly....

Robert Jensen is a professor of journalism at the University of Texas at Austin. This is the second and final part of a two part series. The first part appeared on Tuesday, January 7, 2003

None of what I have said should be taken as a blanket denunciation of the United States, our political institutions, or our culture. People often tell me, ?You start with the assumption that everything about the United States is bad.? Of course I do not assume that. That would be as absurd a position as the assumption that everything about the United States is good. I can?t imagine any reasonable person making either statement. That does raise the question, of course, of who is a reasonable person. We might ask that question about, for example, George Bush, the father. In 1988, after the US
Navy warship Vincennes shot down an Iranian commercial airliner in a
commercial corridor, killing 290 civilians, Bush said, ?I will never
apologise for the United States of America. I don?t care what the facts are.?

I want to put forward the radical proposition that we should care what the facts are. We should start with the assumption that everything about the United States, like everything about any country, needs to be examined and assessed. That is what it means to be a moral person.


There is much about this country a citizen can be proud of, and I am in fact proud of those things. The personal freedoms guaranteed (to most people) in this culture, for example, are quite amazing. As someone who regularly tries to use those freedoms, I am as aware as anyone of how precious they are.

There also is much to be appalled by. The obscene gaps in wealth between rich and poor, for example, are quite amazing as well, especially in a wealthy society that claims to be committed to justice.



In that sense, we are like any other grouping of people. That doesn?t mean one can?t analyse various societies and judge some better than others by principles we can articulate and defend ? so long as they are truly principles, applied honestly and uniformly. But one should maintain a bit of humility in the endeavour. Perhaps instead of saying ?The United States is the greatest nation on earth? ? a comment common among politicians, pundits, and the public ? we would be better off saying, ?I live in the United States and
have deep emotional ties to the people, land, and ideals of this place. Because of these feelings, I want to highlight the positive while working to change what is wrong.? That is not moral relativism ? it is a call for all of us to articulate and defend our positions.

We can make that statement without having to argue that we are, in some essential way, better than everyone else. We can make that statement without arrogantly suggesting that other people are inherently less capable of articulating or enacting high ideals. We can make that statement and be ready and willing to engage in debate and discussion about the merits of different values and systems.

We can make that statement, in other words, and be true internationalists, people truly committed to peace and justice. If one wants to call that statement an expression of patriotism, I will not spend too much time arguing. But I will ask: If we make a statement like that, why do we need to call it an expression of patriotism? What can we learn by asking ourselves: What makes us, even people in the peace-and-justice community, want to hold onto the notion of patriotism with such tenacity?

When I write or talk with the general public and raise questions like these, people often respond, ?If you hate America so much, why don?t you leave??

But what is this America that I allegedly hate? The land itself? The people who live here? The ideals in the country?s founding documents? I do not hate any of those things.

When people say to me ?love it or leave it,? what is the ?it? to which they refer?

No one can ever quite answer that. Still, I have an answer for them.

I will not leave ?it? for a simple reason: I have nowhere else to go. I was born here. I was given enormous privileges here. My place in the world is here, where I feel an obligation to use that privilege to be part ? a very small part of, as we all are only a small part ? of a struggle to make real a better world. Whatever small part I can play in that struggle, whatever I can achieve, I will have to achieve here, in the heart of the beast.

I love it, which is to say that I love life ? I love the world in which I live and the people who live in it with me. I will not leave that ?it.?

That ?it? may not be specific enough for some, but it?s the best I can do. Maybe it will help to answer in the negative, for I can say more clearly what the ?it? is not. I can describe more clearly what is the America I do not love.

The America I love is not this administration, or any other collections of politicians, or the corporations they serve. It is not the policies of this administration, or any other collection of politicians, or the corporations they serve.

The America I love is not wrapped up in a mythology about ?how good we are? that ignores the brutal realities of our own history of conquest and barbarism.

Most of all, I want no part of the America that arrogantly claims that the lives and hopes and dreams of people who happen to live within the boundaries of the United States have more value than those in other places. Nor will I indulge America in the belief that our grief is different. Since September 11, the United States has demanded that the world take our grief more seriously. When some around the world have not done so, we express our outrage.

But we should ask: What makes the grief of a parent who lost a child in the World Trade Centre any deeper than the grief of a parent who lost a child in Baghdad when US warplanes rained death on the civilian areas of Iraq in the Gulf War? Or the parents of a child in Nicaragua when the US terrorist proxy army ravaged that country? Soon after 9- 11, I heard a television reporter describe lower Manhattan as ?Beirut on the Hudson.? We might ask, how did Beirut come to look like Beirut, and what is our responsibility in that? And what of the grief of those who saw their loved ones die during the shelling of that city?

We should ask: Where was the empathy of America for the grief of those people?

Certainly we grieve differently, more intensely, when people close to us die. We don?t feel the loss of a family member the same way as a death of a casual friend. We feel something different over the death of someone we knew compared with the death of a stranger. But we must understand that the grief we feel when our friends and neighbours became victims of political violence is no different than what people around the world feel. We must understand that each of those lives lost abroad has exactly the same value as the life of any one of our family, friends and neighbours.

September 11 was a dark day. I still remember what it felt like to watch those towers come down, the darkness that settled over me that day, the hopelessness, how tangible death felt ? for me, not only the deaths of those in the towers but also the deaths of those who would face the bombs in the war that might follow, the war that did follow, the war that goes on.

But humans are resilient; in the darkness we tend to look for light, for a way out of the darkness.

I believe there is a light shining out of September 11, out of all that darkness. It is a light that I believe we Americans can follow to our own salvation. That light is contained in a simple truth that is obvious, but which Americans have never really taken to heart: We are part of the world. We cannot any longer hide from that world. We cannot allow our politicians, and generals, and corporate executives to do their dirty business around the world while we hide from the truths about just how dirty that business really is. We can no longer hide from the coups they plan, the wars they start, the sweatshops they run.

For me, all this means saying goodbye to patriotism.

That is the paradox: September 11 has sparked a wave of patriotism, a patriotism that has in many cases been overtly hateful, racist and xenophobic. A patriotism that can lead people to say, as one person
wrote to me, ?We should bomb [Afghanistan] until there?s no more earth to bomb.?

But the real lesson of September 11, which I believe we will eventually learn, is that if we are to survive as a free people, as decent people who want honestly to claim the ideals we say we live by, we must say goodbye to patriotism. That patriotism will not relieve our grief, but only deepen it. It will not solve our problems but only extend them. I believe there is no hope for
ourselves or for the world if we continue to embrace patriotism, no matter what the definition.

We must give up our ?love and loyal or zealous support of one?s own country? and transfer that love, loyalty and zealousness to the world, and especially the people of the world who have suffered most so that we Americans can live in affluence.

We must be able to say, as the great labour leader of the early 20th century Eugene Debs said, ?I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth, and I am a citizen of the world.?

I am with Debs. I believe it is time to declare: I am not patriotic. I am through with trying to redefine the term patriotic to make sense. There is no sense to it.

That kind of statement will anger many, but at some point we must begin to take that risk, for this is not merely an academic argument over semantics.

This is both a struggle to save ourselves and a struggle to save the lives of vulnerable people around the world.

We must say goodbye to patriotism because the kind of America the peace-and-justice movement wants to build cannot be built on, or through, the patriotism of Americans.

We must say goodbye to patriotism because the world cannot survive indefinitely the patriotism of Americans.
 
notiti said:
I believe there is a light shining out of September 11, out of all that darkness. It is a light that I believe we Americans can follow to our own salvation. That light is contained in a simple truth that is obvious, but which Americans have never really taken to heart: We are part of the world. We cannot any longer hide from that world. We cannot allow our politicians, and generals, and corporate executives to do their dirty business around the world while we hide from the truths about just how dirty that business really is. We can no longer hide from the coups they plan, the wars they start, the sweatshops they run.

simply amazing.
 
Simply offensive and disgusting. Especially to members of the United States Armed Forces.

This person would do well to take some of his own medicine and question his own idea's thoughts and theory's on US foreign policy, the reasons for war. He should also learn the difference between terrorism targeted at civilians and accidents that happen when bringing dictators to justice.
 
sting2, i actually find YOU to be offensive.

i dont give TWO SHITS if this article or my views are offensive to the american armed forces. theyre brainwashed robots on the leash of messed up politicians.

in the last 50 years i have seen no wars worth fighting, and so in turn, any soldier involved in offensive combat wont be getting any recognition from me. peace keepers, thats a totally different situation.

someone who kills one person is sent to jail, while someone who kills hundreds is considered a hero.

still, people will refuse to look at that FACT.
 
STING2, why on Earth was that article offensive to persons in the Armed Forces? The writer made no inflammatory statements about servicemen and women. (Although deathbear's statement about not respecting servicepersons was uncalled for--note this, bear.) He didn't say, for example, that they were wasting their time or that they were mindless dupes--and neither did anyone else.

Rather he was speaking of the "ideals" that the soldiers are serving--or not serving, perhaps. So what if the United States is not always right, or if we are not the "greatest" country in the world? Even if we were (and we're not), what would that makes soldiers in the Canadian, or Swedish, or (insert foreign nationality here) Armed Forces? Are they mindless dupes? Are they somehow less brave or less patriotic?

Did you even read the article?
 
Paxetaurora,

Carefully read these sentences.


"We cannot allow our politicians, and generals, and corporate executives to do their dirty business around the world while we hide from the truths about just how dirty that business really is. We can no longer hide from the coups they plan, the wars they start, the sweatshops they run."

Yes, I read the article and I have no problem agreeing with the writer that the USA has not always been correct. I partially agree with the idea of considering ones self a citizen of the world. I also agree in examining ones own thoughts about things, but he implies that everyone but himself has failed to do this and if they did, they would arrive at his distorted conclusions about US foreign Policy and global events.

But what is offensive and disgusting is what he said in the above sentences I pasted above!

Cow,

You obviously don't care or don't know how PERSONALLY OFFENSIVE your statements are to me, my family, and very good friends of mine. If its because you don't care, I am concerned that you are potentially devoid of sensitivity and respect for fellow members of this forum.

If I have personally offended you in some way, I sincerely apologize. I do care.
 
STING2 said:
"We cannot allow our politicians, and generals, and corporate executives to do their dirty business around the world while we hide from the truths about just how dirty that business really is. We can no longer hide from the coups they plan, the wars they start, the sweatshops they run."

I read the article, read the paragraph above, re-read the paragraph above and read it once more while I'm typing this reply.
I really don't see anything offensive in the paragraph. Could you please explain why you find it offensive?

C ya!

Marty
 
I think why some people don't like this thread is due to the blatantly ideological statements that STING2 just showed above. Regardless of whether they are true or not, they are very Marxist mantras, and that will immediately inflame passions. As such, any lesson in this article will immediately be lost, and Robert Jensen, being a journalism professor, should immediately have realized the implications of what he was writing. Shame on him.

Melon
 
I don?t blame Sting for taking exception to this article. He, his friends, and family members are in positions where they could have to sacrifice their lives.

The article is well written and sounds reasonable. The impression it leaves is that America is sometimes right and sometimes wrong, about 50/50. I think that is unfair. America is one of the better countries and if I had to handicap, I say right 80- 85 % of the time. That does not mean it is unpatriotic to criticize our shortcomings and push for change.

Quoting Debs and the other ideals do sound socialistic as Melon stated.

Family members of the victims of 911 did go to Afghanistan and visit with innocent Afghanis whose homes were destroyed and who family members were killed. They believed the bombing was wrong.
That does raise the question, of course, of who is a reasonable person. We might ask that question about, for example, George Bush, the father. In 1988, after the US
Navy warship Vincennes shot down an Iranian commercial airliner in a
commercial corridor, killing 290 civilians, Bush said, ?I will never
apologise for the United States of America. I don?t care what the facts are.?
Things like this are not even on the U. S. radar screen of public opinion, that has always bothered me.
 
Popmartian,

Members of the US Armed Forces are not involved in "dirty business". Members of the US Armed Forces do not plan coups, start wars, or run sweatshops. Members of the US Armed Forces defend and protect the citizens United States and other countries. They prevent war from happening by detering those that would seek to unlawfully attack others for various reasons. They bring to justice those that commit evil crimes and threaten the peace and security of everyone. They risk their lives so that people can live in freedom and prosperity. They are the reason why Robert Jensen has the opportunity to express his offensive and uninformed view point.
 
STING2 said:
They (US Armed Forces ) are the reason why Robert Jensen has the opportunity to express his offensive and uninformed view point.

I see statements like this all the time.

I believe it is the Constitution and The Bill of Rights that allow peolpe to express all points of view.
 
notiti said:
This is the second and final part of a two part series. The first part appeared on Tuesday, January 7, 2003


Where did this appear? Does anyone know where I can find the first part? My friend wants to use this in teaching her class. Thanks!
 
STING2 said:
Popmartian,

Members of the US Armed Forces are not involved in "dirty business". Members of the US Armed Forces do not plan coups, start wars, or run sweatshops. Members of the US Armed Forces defend and protect the citizens United States and other countries. They prevent war from happening by detering those that would seek to unlawfully attack others for various reasons. They bring to justice those that commit evil crimes and threaten the peace and security of everyone. They risk their lives so that people can live in freedom and prosperity. They are the reason why Robert Jensen has the opportunity to express his offensive and uninformed view point.

My father is retired Air Force, my step father is a retired Marine, and my Uncle a retired "bird" from the Pentagon and I took no offense to the "dirty business" After my stepdad retired he went on to become the highest ranking civilian at Langley AFB and Tac Headquarters. I grew up next to Langley, Norfolk, and Ft. Monroe, 3 branches of the military and am very familiar how they operate. The job the enlisted men and women of the military do are mostly faultless (there are exceptions), but the hierarchy of the military and the white house often are at fault for their actions. Think Reagan and South America.

I do most definitely agree that most US citizens are either in the dark or have their heads purposely buried in the sand concerning our governments actions.
 
Cow of the Seas said:


i dont give TWO SHITS if this article or my views are offensive to the american armed forces. theyre brainwashed robots on the leash of messed up politicians.



:eeklaugh:

That is so true. I remember in Boot Camp, there was this class where the Drill Sgt. Took out a gold watch on a chain and waved it back and forth for a few minutes. I remember nothing at all after that. It was so weird. And then he counted to three and I was awake.

All I could think of after was every time he said the "salt peter" I would suddenly lock and load a magazine and beg to be sent to the nearest third world country to overthrow their governement so that we could make sweat shops for Corporate America.


Ahhhhhh those were the days!

Seriously now.

America is not as good many "Patriots" like to believe it is........
Nor is America as bad as many people would like to paint it as.....

OUR past is full of goodness, hope, and opportunity........
OUR past is also full of greed, abuses and horror.......

Are there bad politicians? Are there bad soldiers? YES. Human beings are flawed and many times their flaws lead them and unfortunately others down the wrong path.

Are there good politicians? Are there good soldiers? YES. Patriotism lives in many peoples hearts. Many people do serve their country and look upon it as a noble thing to do.

There is a tone in that article, that is offensive to members of the service. The article is not representative of the reasons I joined the military. It is not representative of my relatives service to their country.

We ARE lucky to live here. We are blessed with many freedoms that others do not have. This still is a place that offers opportunities that others would die for. Are we perfect???? No but do we have the means....to change peacefully?

MLK day is coming up. We are a country that changes so slowly it almost reminds me of the vatican. We do CHANGE. The scars of slavery are still there, yet we have and still are working through these issues. That ability to change, to make things better for the future generations, is what makes this country special. Will I see it in my lifetime....probably not. Do I believe that we have the ability as a country to move towards a better society? Aboslutely. Did I sign my name on the line and take an oath to protect it because I believe it is important to protect? YES.

Those brainwashed ROBOTS COW are some of the most dedicated people I have ever met and had the honor of calling my friends.

Peace
 
Scarletwine said:
The job the enlisted men and women of the military do are mostly faultless (there are exceptions), but the hierarchy of the military and the white house often are at fault for their actions. Think Reagan and South America.

I do most definitely agree that most US citizens are either in the dark or have their heads purposely buried in the sand concerning our governments actions.

i agree completely. i have nothing but respect for our military. my father is a vet and i respect him more than just about anyone on the planet. i'm very aware of how lucky and blessed i am to live in my country, and i realize who is out there fighting so i can enjoy the freedoms that i do. however, this does not mean that i will turn a blind eye when my government/military partakes in action that i find immoral or imperialistic.
 
Reading this article i just knew Sting was going to have a fit. I was expecting his name to be the first to respond.

I enjoyed this point of view and as a i read it i really agreed with him but as i think more about it there is a tone in this article that is sort of demeaning. He kind of talks like he is the only one doing anything about patritism.

The military thing. Well maybe he should have been a little more sensitve to ppl of the military. They are a vitle part of America and are very respected and it seems to me like he, either knowingly or blindly, dis-respecting him. I actually do kind of agree with you sting, not to the degree of your outrage but i see where you are coming from.

However it is well written and i enjoyed the read. I dont think you can shoot down his whole theory just for inserting the word generals. Also i dont think he was attacking the entire military more like the people who are head of dep. These are the people who make the military decsions. These men are politcians, and as much as you might not agree with that i think anyone that is at the head of alot of people become polictions.

On a side note what GB SR said!!! I cant believ someone would say that. How can you be so blindly stubborn.
 
Scartletwine,

My father was apart of that "Military heirarchy" so naturaly your implicating him in your unfounded criticism of the military. I was offended and most people I know would be as well, and if your not than that is your point of view.

I support the Reagan administration efforts to combat Communism in central America.

Most people in the US population don't realize what the military does for them on a daily basis.

Scartletwine, if you have a charge to level against any high ranking military official, lets here it. Name and charge please.

What the writer said basically implicated the entire US military in performing "dirty business" and "starting wars". The US military does neither!

I've never said I turn a blind eye to anything. I try to be objective and respectful unlike the writer of that article.
 
STING2 said:
Popmartian,

Members of the US Armed Forces are not involved in "dirty business". Members of the US Armed Forces do not plan coups, start wars, or run sweatshops. Members of the US Armed Forces defend and protect the citizens United States and other countries. They prevent war from happening by detering those that would seek to unlawfully attack others for various reasons...

I'm not disputing that. But Jensen didn't indict ordinary soldiers. He specifically named generals, politicans, and businesspersons who *do* have a great amount of control and influence over military actions that most servicepersons do not have. Thus I think your statement that he was calling down all members of the military is misleading, because he targeted a very few members of the military who would have the influence and power to plan and order actions that we might consider unjust.

And about his statements that you pointed out: even if they're socialistic (and they might be, somewhat), that doesn't make them untrue. We know that our government has been involved in the kinds of actions Jensen mentions. While you might not like the way he worded it, you know he has a point.

I still think it's an inspiring article that has a lot to say about how one can be a *good* American without buying into the government/military/Big Business propaganda that the Bush administration would have us believe.
 
STING2 said:
What the writer said basically implicated the entire US military in performing "dirty business" and "starting wars". The US military does neither!

I took the "dirty business" as a comment about the American corporate policy (eg - sweatshops, profits at all costs, underpaying and taking advantage of foreign workers in the name of the mighty buck) more than a comment about the military personnel.
 
paxetaurora said:


I'm not disputing that. But Jensen didn't indict ordinary soldiers. He specifically named generals, politicans, and businesspersons who *do* have a great amount of control and influence over military actions that most servicepersons do not have.

Though i dont agree with Sting fully i will defend this point.

He is puting alot of people in the same catagory.

Generals- I would think there are a good few of them around, and i wouldnt think they are ALL bad ppl. Also these people are giving orders to the ppl below them, and with saying this it makes me think that he expects that the servicemen should rebels againist them.

Politicans- Well again there are alot of them, too many if you ask me. But to loop them all in the same pile is kind of misleading. There are alot of politcans who do great things.

And lastly:

Businesspeople- Well any person that deals with international bus. could be put into this group. I do think it is kind of harsh to put them all down. There are maybe 10 big bus. that use SS. Maybe more maybe less. They can cover it up so well its hard to dicifer.

But really without any specifc examples of their misdoings i do think he is being very harsh on these people.
 
Paxetaurora,

"Ordinary soldiers" have powerful control themselves over many actions that take place inside and outside combat. I find it a huge distortion to equate Generals with Politicians or Business "elite". The military is not like that and the Generals are not there making some enormous profit like someone in business or politics. They are soldiers just like the "private" and have long histories of distinguished service to this country. Many of them have served in combat. Some have been wounded. These Generals have spent most of their lives in service to their country sometimes risking their lives to keep our country safe. Their only ambition is the safety and security of our citizens and the citizens of world community. Generals only a recieve a tiny fraction of what they would if they were in a similar position in business or the private sector. They do not have the power to take the nation to war like the President and Congress does. They simply recommend and execute the orders of the Commander and Chief who is a civilian and a politician. The Generals of our country deserve are utmost respect for their decades of service to our country. They do not deserve comments like Jensens which are uninformed, unobjective, baseless generalizations.

Generals were once privates or 2nd LT platoon commanders themselves. The military is always changing with people towards the top retiring and new people coming in. This idea that their somehow seperate from the rest of the military is a false one. What ever part of the military you decide to implicate whether its a Captains, Majors, Privates or Generals, you implicate the organization as a whole. Its absurd, one day my friends become Generals and all of a sudden their accused of these unfounded crimes. I'm sorry but thats just absurd and makes no sense.

Jensen has a point on somethings, but certainly not on his politically motivated assumptions about US foreign Policy and the military.

If anyone is spewing propaganda its Jensen. By the way the military is not apart of a propaganda machine!
 
im sure by now, most of you realize my posting is rediculously extreme. there is a reason for it.

the way media portrays everything, its so grey that everyone just assumes this or assumes that. if you have someone come in and say something a bit more harshly than the next youll take notice.

i dont understand why armed forces are to be considered so "holy." i doubt i ever will.

perhaps if i lived somewhere else, i would. but as a pacifist, i think the whole notion is rediculous.

whatever though, i liked the article, and though ofcourse it has propaganda value, i like to hear and read against the grain propaganda now and then.
 
Sting, even if all that is accurate (and I'm not saying that it's not), *certain* generals still have influence over decisions that are made within the military. You've won me at least to the point where I'll say that Jensen should either have been more specific or excluded mention of the armed forces. Still, those military personnel (thought they might be few) who have been responsible for what we know to be poor or harmful decisions are culpable.

But I still agree with his basic points. He's right that we can't afford unilateralism, and that it is a quirky feature of American arrogance that we think that we can. We can love our country without the "my country right or wrong" flavor of patriotism that seems to have been added fairly recently in American history. I find it suspicious to say the least that at a time when the government is (or at least seems to be) planning a number of unpopular actions, we are getting messages of swollen "patriotism" as well.

Even though I am as anti-war as you can get without actually being pacifist, I still have respect for persons in the Armed Forces. I don't want you to get the impression that I don't. I am the granddaughter of veterans (WWII and Korea), and I realize that there are people willing to defend this country to the death if necessary. I respect that--so much that I want our country to develop policies that protect the lives of health of our men and women in uniform to the fullest extent possible. The best way to do that, natch, is to not to go war unless absolutely necessary.
 
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