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Old 05-19-2004, 08:40 PM   #31
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Originally posted by anitram


You are talking about Sikhs.
No I mean like in Afghanistan under the Taliban, they forced men to wear beards and wear turbans, or some kind of headscarves. Young boys in school were in trouble if they didn't wear theirs.
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Old 05-20-2004, 12:54 AM   #32
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Sort of off-topic, but do women ever wear those garments partially b/c like in Iraq and such, they live in a hot, dry, dusty climate? Covering yourself is good when in the baking heat, and I bet wearing a scarf around your mouth keeps the dust out. I was just thinking this b/c I'm going to Africa in January and they told us it's hot and dusty and it would irritate our eyes. Just a thought...
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Old 05-20-2004, 01:32 AM   #33
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I really don't see the point of this thread.

We seem to have established that people don't like Muslims much and are willing to believe the worst of the religion based on the most extreme fundamentalists available (all middle eastern examples. The world's largest muslim population is in south-east Asia).

I guess the 1.5 muslims who actually post at this forum don't feel too welcome.
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Old 05-20-2004, 01:34 AM   #34
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None of this should be interpreted as me implying the culture is ideal by my standards (we have our own problems too).

But, the mere fact I don't like something is no reason to, well, invade.
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Old 05-20-2004, 07:12 AM   #35
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
Sort of off-topic, but do women ever wear those garments partially b/c like in Iraq and such, they live in a hot, dry, dusty climate? Covering yourself is good when in the baking heat, and I bet wearing a scarf around your mouth keeps the dust out. I was just thinking this b/c I'm going to Africa in January and they told us it's hot and dusty and it would irritate our eyes. Just a thought...
Then why does the woman who comes in my grocery store in VA still dress that way all year round?
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Old 05-20-2004, 07:16 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kieran McConville
None of this should be interpreted as me implying the culture is ideal by my standards (we have our own problems too).

But, the mere fact I don't like something is no reason to, well, invade.
I just can't understand why the way women are treated by -->SOME<-- is allowed to exist in this day and age when all other religious and cultural discrimination has been scorned and banished, but this one is protected, oh no, you can't 'invade', you can't criticize, leave it alone, but why? No other opression on this scale is condoned, why is this??!!
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Old 05-20-2004, 07:31 AM   #37
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Originally posted by U2Kitten


Then why does the woman who comes in my grocery store in VA still dress that way all year round?
I heard one tell it once that they have worn this garb for so much of their lives, to suddenly disrobe and dress as we do is kind of like us walking around naked - ie they'd feel awfully exposed. Then there is probably a thousand other reasons why they still wear it. Choice is probably a part of it, I'm sure.
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Old 05-20-2004, 09:10 AM   #38
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Well once again a serious and valid cause has been damaged by someone rich and famous being crass where:-
a)His detailed knowledge is very limited
b)He doesn't care beyond a little temporary interest
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Old 05-20-2004, 03:45 PM   #39
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I agree with Keiran. I'd would be nice if we had some Muslim women here to give us better insight. I don't know any Muslim families so my only knowledge of their religion and culture is from college history courses. And from what we learned, western peoples unfamiliar with Islam tend to speculate and base assumptions on the extreme cases we see in the news.

I don't know why a Muslim woman would wear a scarf to the grocery store. Maybe she just wants to; it's not my place to speculate. Society is not always "right" when it comes to one's religion. For her religion, it's tradition for women to wear those scarves, even though American society finds that oppressive and impractical. My religion shuns dressing in revealing, trashy clothing, but society and pop-culture LOVES that kind of stuff so......
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Old 05-20-2004, 05:27 PM   #40
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
I agree with Keiran. I'd would be nice if we had some Muslim women here to give us better insight.
Fat chance. The women I'm talking about would not be allowed to use a computer, much less listen to U2, or voice any opinions that are not her huband's.

Quote:
I don't know any Muslim families so my only knowledge of their religion and culture is from college history courses. And from what we learned, western peoples unfamiliar with Islam tend to speculate and base assumptions on the extreme cases we see in the news.
Well, I have known some. I have known westernized girls from Turkey and Jordan who just happened to be Muslim (they called it "Moslem") So I know they are not all like that, and I am not talking about them!!!!!!!!!!

It's the situations in those stories that I am talking about. I know they don't all live that way, but that doesn't make things easier for those who do, and their opression should not be ignored or disregarded just because not all Muslims live that way. I thought this was taken for granted that we all knew that and took it into consideration, that's why I am so surprised to see 2 people come in so late in the thread making these accusations.

Quote:
I don't know why a Muslim woman would wear a scarf to the grocery store. Maybe she just wants to; it's not my place to speculate. Society is not always "right" when it comes to one's religion. For her religion, it's tradition for women to wear those scarves, even though American society finds that oppressive and impractical. My religion shuns dressing in revealing, trashy clothing, but society and pop-culture LOVES that kind of stuff so......
I'm not speculating. If you read my other post, you'd see, she's not just wearing a scarf. I have seen lots of ladies in the store in fairly normal clothes with only a scarf. That is NOT what I mean. This woman was completely cloaked in black from head to foot, and face, with nothing showing but her eyes. That's why she scared little kids. She wears this year round and in all weather. She walks 10 feet behind her husband in stores, yet he pays, and she carries out the bags, 10 feet behind again. She does not speak unless he speaks to her. I have tried to say hello and she ignored me. I have witnessed this myself. I have seen things like this on TV, so yes I think she lives like those discriminated against women. But I am not stupid, or uninformed, and I am not making assumptions.
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Old 05-21-2004, 06:14 AM   #41
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I dont really understand what this has to do with extremists. Maybe I'm missing something. All I complained about was how the culture in general treats women. Not extremists. And as for not liking them much, I have no opinion on 'them' any more than I do on any other group. Ie, none. Screw PC. The way the religion is interpreted is beyond fucked. The Prophet doesn't encourage the resulting treatment of women, yet they're still second class.
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Old 05-21-2004, 07:12 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
I dont really understand what this has to do with extremists. Maybe I'm missing something. All I complained about was how the culture in general treats women. Not extremists. And as for not liking them much, I have no opinion on 'them' any more than I do on any other group. Ie, none. Screw PC. The way the religion is interpreted is beyond fucked. The Prophet doesn't encourage the resulting treatment of women, yet they're still second class.


Exactly, thank you.

We are talking about how the culture in general treats women, and how little rights women have in many parts of the Islamic world. We know that among Muslims there are extremists, but this is not just among extremists. We also know that there are Muslim women who do not dress this way, and no one was talking about them. I really thought everyone understood all this and that's why I was so shocked to see the old accusations of 'you don't like them' and 'let's get some in here to tell us'. And if anyone is so damn PC how about worrying more about the rights and lives of these women than protecting and justifying those who vicitimize them?
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Old 05-21-2004, 10:48 AM   #43
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You're right Angela. The prophet Mohammed himself was for equal rights for women. There's stuff in the Koran itself about this. The problem is the interpretation by men who want to preserve the status quo, and deny women any rights. I'd cut my throat before I'd defend men like this. They cause an unbelievable amount of suffering. The problem in the non-Islamic world is with people who indict *all* Muslims for the misdeeds of some. This isn't fair.
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Old 05-21-2004, 11:02 AM   #44
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Originally posted by verte76
The problem in the non-Islamic world is with people who indict *all* Muslims for the misdeeds of some. This isn't fair.
But no one here has done that.


The problem I have with this is that women are not only denied rights but are being abused and even killed and using religion to justify it in -->SOME<--- cases in -->MANY BUT NOT ALL <--places.

While things like this are condemned by most people, they somehow get lost when it comes to the Muslim world, because some people are so busy defending the religion these women continue to suffer. It isn't just the middle east, it happens in parts of Africa too. What about the graphic forced mutilation and sewing up of young girls' genitals under usually unsanitary conditions? Bono said on one of the TV specials on his trip to Africa that he had a hard time getting the safe sex to prevent the spread of AIDS message across because in some places you are not allowed to discuss it. He mentioned certain overly strict Islamic rules, yes he said that, as a reason for it. It upsets me that these things continue to happen because no one can mention this or discuss it without being accused of being anti-Muslim.

Look I'm not even much of a feminist at all but I am disturbed by what happens to ->MANY BUT NOT ALL<--girls and women in -->SOME BUT NOT ALL<--- Islamic cultures. Just because they're 'not all like that' doesn't make things easier for, and shouldn't condone, the ones who are.
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Old 05-21-2004, 11:05 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
The prophet Mohammed himself was for equal rights for women.
howmany wives did he have ? does he advocate ladies to that many husbands ?


Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
The problem in the non-Islamic world is with people who indict *all* Muslims for the misdeeds of some. This isn't fair.
non-islamic world is perfect. Even where muslim population is just 3% ( as in thailand) or even few millions ( like france) , - there are bomb blasts, suicide bombs,

There might be only few (hundred) bombers and hijackers but it has lots & lots of sympathizers all over the world.

The latter is the BIGGEST problem and act as moral support for the former.
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