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Old 03-02-2005, 04:06 PM   #31
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I really like the fact that Harvard doesnt have any fraternities or sororities. Im against the whole idea. why cant guys and girls be in the same organization? when they do that, it becomes a student association or an activity club, which is totally normal. fraternity/sorority system is segregation and its just stupid.
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Old 03-02-2005, 04:12 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
This issue has been addressed before -- by several chapters of Intervarsity over the years who have stated that gay/lesbian students could not serve on leadership. I forget which Boston college initially threw IV off campus, but the ACLU came in on the side of the Christians on that one (in 2000), and did again a few years later when a similar case was brought in another part of the country. I forget the specifics of the latter situation, but the ACLU again seemed to think that private organizations had the right to define membership and governing ordinances.
It was Tufts, if I remember correctly.

The point is that having clubs like these is rather pointless if they don't have the right to control their membership and agenda. BGLTS groups probably wouldn't like being forced to accept a member who went around proclaiming that gay orientation is a choice or that homosexual activity is an abomination, would they?
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Old 03-02-2005, 04:22 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer


The point is that having clubs like these is rather pointless if they don't have the right to control their membership and agenda. BGLTS groups probably wouldn't like being forced to accept a member who went around proclaiming that gay orientation is a choice or that homosexual activity is an abomination, would they?
What does this have to do with it? How are they being forced to change their agenda? If someone who's Jewish joins their club(don't ask me why they would but so many here are assuming they would ) how does this change their agenda, it doesn't mean they have to change what they talk about or do.
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Old 03-02-2005, 04:28 PM   #34
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Originally posted by Do Miss America


What does this have to do with it? How are they being forced to change their agenda? If someone who's Jewish joins their club(don't ask me why they would but so many here are assuming they would ) how does this change their agenda, it doesn't mean they have to change what they talk about or do.
I said that a support group for gays probably wouldn't take too kindly to being forced to keep a member who actively proclaims his opposition to homosexuality.

Likewise, a religious group that believes strongly in its interpretation of scripture can't be forced to take in members who plan to undermine their beliefs.
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Old 03-02-2005, 04:31 PM   #35
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well, how do these 3 guys know if they admitted a gay member he would actively promote homosexuality?

the issue in the original article is not about what a prospective gay member might DO, it is about who they ARE

a person cannot change who he/she is.

we can only be judged by our actions, not our identities.
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Old 03-02-2005, 04:33 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer


I said that a support group for gays probably wouldn't take too kindly to being forced to keep a member who actively proclaims his opposition to homosexuality.

Likewise, a religious group that believes strongly in its interpretation of scripture can't be forced to take in members who plan to undermine their beliefs.
Alpha Iota Omega's status as an official campus group was revoked after it refused to sign the university's nondiscrimination policy.





if there is a gay club on campus they signed.


that means they can not desriminate against a Christian or Muslim that believes their behavior is a sin.
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Old 03-02-2005, 04:39 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer


I said that a support group for gays probably wouldn't take too kindly to being forced to keep a member who actively proclaims his opposition to homosexuality.

Likewise, a religious group that believes strongly in its interpretation of scripture can't be forced to take in members who plan to undermine their beliefs.
Why would they join? A member of a support group for gays probably attends marches, meeting, etc do you really think someone who opposed would want to do this?
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Old 03-02-2005, 04:57 PM   #38
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Originally posted by deep

Alpha Iota Omega's status as an official campus group was revoked after it refused to sign the university's nondiscrimination policy.





if there is a gay club on campus they signed.


that means they can not desriminate against a Christian or Muslim that believes their behavior is a sin.
Quote:
Originally posted by Do Miss America


Why would they join? A member of a support group for gays probably attends marches, meeting, etc do you really think someone who opposed would want to do this?
Some ultra-fundamentalist Christian might "infiltrate" a BGLTS club and start trying to "convert" members to heterosexuality.

I don't support this kind of action, but it's not too hard to imagine it happening someday.
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Old 03-02-2005, 05:01 PM   #39
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hell, let him try. who cares..
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Old 03-02-2005, 05:03 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer




Some ultra-fundamentalist Christian might "infiltrate" a BGLTS club and start trying to "convert" members to heterosexuality.

I don't support this kind of action, but it's not too hard to imagine it happening someday.

i agree with your point


the only reason this is a story

is because they refused to sign the policy.

the gay clubs and the rest all did.
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Old 03-02-2005, 05:07 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer




Some ultra-fundamentalist Christian might "infiltrate" a BGLTS club and start trying to "convert" members to heterosexuality.

I don't support this kind of action, but it's not too hard to imagine it happening someday.
Well this person would have to pay the dues and support their club first. Clubs have rules as to who talk when and what so he probably wouldn't get a chance. If he was really that "dedicated" there's easier ways.

So really I think your example doesn't hold water.
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Old 03-02-2005, 05:12 PM   #42
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Originally posted by Do Miss America


Well this person would have to pay the dues and support their club first. Clubs have rules as to who talk when and what so he probably wouldn't get a chance. If he was really that "dedicated" there's easier ways.
He wouldn't have to do his prosletyzing during club meetings; he could do it informally, after the meetings are over, and eventually enough people would become upset that he'd be asked to leave and have no further contact with club members.

Or maybe he'd join, and later on become convinced that homosexuality is "wrong" and seek to advance these views. This is essentially the reverse of what happened to the Tufts Christian Fellowship.

Quote:

So really I think your example doesn't hold water.
It may be unlikely, but dismissing it is a cheap way to avoid discussing the principles involved.
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Old 03-02-2005, 05:24 PM   #43
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I didn't go out for sorority rush because when I was a freshman in college none of the sororities on campus accepted African-Americans as members. I didn't want to fool with this. I wouldn't join this particular group. They have a right to exist, with as many dumb rules as they please, and we have the right to ignore them if we damn please.
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Old 03-02-2005, 05:25 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer

He wouldn't have to do his prosletyzing during club meetings; he could do it informally, after the meetings are over, and eventually enough people would become upset that he'd be asked to leave and have no further contact with club members.
So then they get the dues a they lose an asshole. So what?

Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer

Or maybe he'd join, and later on become convinced that homosexuality is "wrong" and seek to advance these views. This is essentially the reverse of what happened to the Tufts Christian Fellowship.
This could happen in soroities, fraternities, or any organization. Some of my guy friends were asked to leave their fraternity because they started to speak out how their hazing was immoral and how their fraternity had lost all real meaning.

Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer

It may be unlikely, but dismissing it is a cheap way to avoid discussing the principles involved.
I'm not avoiding anything. No one here has presented a real reason as to why these men have a real case.

Let's just say for argument sake someone did want to inflitrate their little club and they did have the power to discriminate based on whatever how would they know? How would they know? Like someone said, there are no religion IDs that people carry around.

Plus everyone's forgetting that frats and clubs like that have rush and they can eliminate whoever they want.
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Old 03-02-2005, 05:48 PM   #45
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Originally posted by Do Miss America

So then they get the dues a they lose an asshole. So what?
Well, if I must spell out the punchline in plain detail...Mr. Ultra-Fundamentalist would claim that he's being discriminated against because of his religiously-motivated views on homosexuality. He'd probably be right, but it'd be rather dumb to force the BGLTS club to accept him if their charter states that their purpose is to help gay people accept their sexuality.

Quote:

No one here has presented a real reason as to why these men have a real case.
Besides historical precedent and analogies, you mean?

This thread is no longer just about those three guys, who probably should have just signed the nondiscrimination pact and postponed the day of reckoning. It's about college groups and their ability to govern themselves.

Quote:

Let's just say for argument sake someone did want to inflitrate their little club and they did have the power to discriminate based on whatever how would they know? How would they know? Like someone said, there are no religion IDs that people carry around.
So according to standard nondiscrimination policies, the BLGTS club might be free to dismiss a nonreligious member who wanted to turn the group into a therapy group for changing sexual orientation, but they would not be able to dismiss a member who wanted to do the same if he declared that he was religiously motivated. A rather absurd state of affairs.

Quote:

Plus everyone's forgetting that frats and clubs like that have rush and they can eliminate whoever they want.
Well, the reason I brought up general frats in the first place is not because they discriminate during rush; it was because they categorically discriminate on the basis of gender. Ultimately, colleges allow them to stay because similar organizations exist for women. In a similar manner, if a gay Christian wants to join a Christian organization, but the evangelical group isn't tolerant of homosexuality, he or she can join a more liberal group or charter one.

The point is, these antidiscrmination statues cut both ways and have the power to undermine college organizations' reason for existing.
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